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Sound Doctrine, Sound Words (Part 1)
Monday, Mar 9, 2009

(By Phil Johnson)

The following notes are from Phil's Shepherds' Conference seminar on Friday morning.

This morning I want to look at two verses in Titus 2—verses 7-8. This is an admonition from Paul to Titus, his friend, partner, protege, and true son in the faith. Titus is one of the unsung heroes of the early church—a young pastor whose faithful support and constant behind-the-scenes labor made him extremely precious to Paul. Paul writes to Titus with these instructions (Titus 2:7-8): "Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us."

I chose that text, frankly, because I'm deeply concerned about the tendency of so many pastors lately to employ profanity, crude and obscene words, vile subject matter, carnal topics, graphic sexual imagery, erotic language, and filthy jokes. Most of you, I know, are aware of the trend I'm talking about. I'm tempted to call it the pornification of the pulpit. The justification usually given is that coarse language and sexual themes are the tools of contextualization. It's a way to make us sound more relevant. Lots of voices in the church are insistent that this is absolutely essential if we want to reach certain segments of our culture.

The apostle Paul said otherwise, and that's what I want to look at in this hour.

When I was considering what subjects might be important for a group of pastors and church leaders as large and diverse as this, I couldn't get away from this issue. The New York Times Magazine recently did a feature article on Mark Driscoll in which this was a major theme. "Who Would Jesus Smack Down?" was the title of the article. Here's the lead sentence: "Mark Driscoll's sermons are mostly too racy to post on [an] evangelical Christian 'family friendly' . . . Web site."

So this is a subject almost everyone (including the New York Times) is already talking nonstop about. And yet it seems to me that people in the evangelical world are not thinking very biblically about it. What language and what kind of subject matter are suitable for the pulpit in a worship service? What gifts and what virtues qualify a man to be a pastor? And what should stand out most prominently when someone analyzes our style of ministry? What would YOU want the New York Times to focus on if they did an article analyzing your style?

A decade ago (in our circles, at least), no one would have considered those to be very tough questions. But now evangelicals are obsessed with this issue, and frankly many are very confused about it. It amazes me how many young men in the ministry today are utterly enthralled with smutty talk and lascivious subject matter—and they insist this is a positive trend.

I'm also appalled at the number of good men and Christian leaders who privately say they don't really "approve" of "filthiness . . . foolish talk[, and] crude joking"; but they feel we need to overlook those trends and keep silence in public—so that the delicate fabric of evangelical unity isn't torn asunder by a controversy over words. Frankly, I think this whole issue probably would not be controversial at all if a handful of respected Christian leaders were willing to step up and deal with the matter boldly and biblically.

Sadly, evangelical tolerance for shenanigans in the pulpit has undergone a monumental change in the past couple of decades—and not in a healthy direction. The most overtly lewd and profane kinds of foolishness have found their way into the evangelical repertoire under the rubric of contextualization.

Now, I face a serious practical dilemma here. In one sense, I'd like to show you some examples of the kind of thing I'm talking about, so that you understand that I am not exaggerating. On the other hand, most of these things are so thoroughly inappropriate that there's no way I would ever drag them into our worship center.

But I'm pretty sure most of you are aware of some of the kinds of things I am talking about. Here's a handful of more-or-less sanitized examples: There's a group called xxxchurch who say they are targeting porn addicts and people who work in the so-called adult entertainment industry. They sponsor a booth at the major porn conventions—where they say they are doing evangelism. They hand out Bibles and wear t-shirts stenciled with a deliberately ambiguous slogan: "Jesus loves Porn stars." And the centerpiece of their display is a 15-foot inflatable phallus. They have painted a face on this abomination and given it a name. Now, xxxchurch isn't some obscure anomaly I dug up out of nowhere. You will find links to their website from literally hundreds of churches who support and promote what xxxchurch is doing.

Trends like that abound in the evangelical world. It is suddenly very popular to preach sermons in which the pastor graphically describes private acts of perversion in language borrowed from the porn industry. There's a group of young women online who blog about the intimate details of their sex lives under the guise of trying to help Christian women spice up troubled marriages.

In a group this size, it's likely that some of you may even have links to organizations and resources like that on your church websites. If so, shame on you, and you need to rethink what you are doing. Strategies like those invariably employ purposely suggestive images and speech that is calculated to be erotic. And I have no doubt whatsoever that they lure Christians into a culture of porn and carnality. I know for a fact that they are deadly stumbling blocks for people who have been saved out of that lifestyle. To claim that it's necessary to use deliberately seductive strategies such as those to draw people to Christ out of a culture that is already obsessed with everything erotic is a lie. It also ignores the reality of what has actually happened to the evangelical movement over the past decade.

Likewise, to claim that filthy language and purposely coarse words are essential for reaching people with the gospel is ludicrous. But that is exactly the argument that is being made. Here's a typical comment I found posted in a Southern Baptist discussion forum where this was the topic under discussion. The guy who wrote this seems to be a youth pastor or college minister. He says:

Any Christian who says the words on the FCC's "dirty word" list are bad . . . is judging (and hence pushing away) millions of the lost simply because they . . . use different syllables. . . . God gives us no list of "abusive" words . . . . In a discussion with a "sinner" in a bar, the f-word often simply means "very". I have won many people in [our community] to Christ dropping the f-bomb, and that is no lie. . . . Any word can be used abusively, and any word can be used to glorify God.

Really?

Have you ever wondered why the IRS doesn't publish tax forms in the language of the gutter? Of course you haven't. because no one really believes that's a necessary or legitimate form of contextualization.

Todd Friel points out that you can watch the 11:00 news on any television channel in Seattle, and you won't find them using porn-slang and gutter-talk to communicate the daily headlines to their viewers. And none of their viewers are demanding for the news to be translated into cuss words so they can understand what is being said. Why is that? If that kind of contextualization is so essential to communicate a message to people in what is supposedly "the most unchurched community" in America, why don't the secular news media know that? Could it be that talking dirty is not really as important as some stylish evangelicals are telling us it is?

This approach to "relevance" has swept the evangelical community in a very short time. Just three years ago we were discussing the pros and cons of Rick Warren's 40 days of Purpose. Today the latest rage in the evangelical community is "40 days of sex"—or some variation on that theme. Ed Young, Jr., Pastor of the third largest church in America, got nationwide news coverage for his church because he gave a series on sex with a giant bed as a prop on the platform. He sat on that bed and announced that he was issuing a "seven-Day Sex Challenge" to the congregation. Here's how the Dallas Morning News reported the story:

God may have rested on the seventh day, but the Rev. Ed Young wants married couples to have sex all week long. Once a day. Beginning this Sunday. The call to action will headline Mr. Young's Sunday sermon at Grapevine-based Fellowship Church. He plans to deliver his challenge while sitting on a bed.

I think Ed Young actually got that idea from a Florida church where the pastor issued a 30-day sex challenge. Apparently, 30 days turned out to be too rigorous, so most of the churches that have followed suit have down-scaled the demand a bit.

But suddenly that kind of eroticism from the pulpit is all the rage. Time magazine noticed the trend and did a major article about it six months ago, titled "And God said: Just Do It." I see a different story almost every week about some church sponsoring a series on sex or a sex challenge of some kind. Part of the trend involves putting up suggestive billboards around town. The billboards tend to outrage even secular communities, and that's one reason this trend keeps making the news. Every church seems to try to make the ads more sleazy than all their predecessors. In Kenosha, WI, just last month, the secular school board informed a church they couldn't use school property for their Sunday services anymore because the school board looked at the flyer the church put on doors all around the community—and the school board thought the flyer advertizing the pastor's series on sex was too pornographic.

Let's be honest: No one really thinks this kind of thing is absolutely necessary to reach our culture, and I've never heard anyone even try to argue that these trends are having a sanctifying impact in a society that is already sex-crazed to the point of gross perversion.

So why is this so pervasive? It's clear, for one thing, that there are lots of people in the evangelical movement who really want to be at home in the culture. And too many pastors are enthralled with the idea of being cool in the eyes of the world.

Let's be candid: to a very large degree the whole notion of contextualization has been commandeered as an excuse for carnal minds poisoned by overexposure to smut. Some people just love the sound of filthy words, and they and feed their egos with the shockwaves that kind of language generates. The more the church wants to be like the world, the more that attitude will dominate.

(To be continued tomorrow)

Posted by Pulpit Magazine   |  Tags Cultural Issues, Ministry

30 Responses to Sound Doctrine, Sound Words (Part 1)


Posted by Michael Johnson   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Amen and Amen. I just got through listening, but had to quit, to Mark Driscoll's horrid sermon about this.
Thanks for preaching on this subject Phil!

Posted by Dwight Wagner   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

I thank God for Phil's boldness, steadfastness, and clarity in preaching this message. It needed to be said! Amen!

And thanks for all those who helped in the live streaming of the conference. A tremendous blessing to me.

Posted by Tom Sturch   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Phil: Thanks for your message. The work of the Church is to be in culture, maintain a distinctiveness from it, and to be ready to give an answer for the hope we live out. The Holy Spirit is sufficient to draw. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is sufficient to save. This latest trend to attract (manipulate) people into the Kingdom is an old trick with new trappings. The practices reveal beliefs that look less and less like the Biblical standard and more like apostasy. How will the world know the difference?

Posted by Aaron Sauer   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Great message. Praise God for men who will stand firm on biblical truth and risk persecution because of it! Sadly, it seems that Mark Driscoll considers Phil Johnson to be a fool as he posted this soon after Phil gave his message http://twitter.com/PastorMark/statuses/1290139675

Posted by Scott McIntosh   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

"Sadly, it seems that Mark Driscoll considers Phil Johnson to be a fool as he posted this soon after Phil gave his message http://twitter.com/PastorMark/statuses/1290139675"

Could you put that into context, please? Anyway, as the Pastor of a large church and a very public ministry I bet Pastor Mark has to meditate often on Prov. 26:4.

Posted by Aaron Sauer   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

"Sadly, it seems that Mark Driscoll considers Phil Johnson to be a fool as he posted this soon after Phil gave his message http://twitter.com/PastorMark/statuses/1290139675"

........."Could you put that into context, please? Anyway, as the Pastor of a large church and a very public ministry I bet Pastor Mark has to meditate often on Prov. 26:4."

Could it have been a coincidence that Driscoll posted that soon after Phil's message?...doubtful. Twitter was abuzz about Phil's message and so were Driscoll's defenders. Mark is active on twitter and knew what was going on. He posted that right around the time that the message was given. That's the only time that I have ever seen Driscoll make a comment about him meditating on Prov 26:4.

Posted by Scott McIntosh   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

"Could it have been a coincidence that Driscoll posted that soon after Phil's message?."

Actually, it could have been. But Phil called him out and one couldn't blame him for defending himself. At this point he has taken the higher road than I might have.

Thanks for the reply. I have followed Pastor Driscoll fairly closely over the past two years. Have listened to many of the sermons Mars Hill has on their website and have read many of his books. One of the reasons I love forums like this is to learn. If you or someone could direct me to a sermon or teaching by Pastor Mark that is not biblical in such a way as to be heretical I would appreciate it. I know that may not be the point of this discussion because it seems that people have more of a problem with Pastor Marks' style than his preaching which at any given time can convict me, inspire me, teach me and always pushes me deeper into the Word of God. I know his style isn't for everyone but then Pastor MacArthur's style isn't for everyone either.(By the way I love Dr. MacArthur too but couldn't resist dropping names like Phil did in his presentation). But he has never offended me. One thing I couldn't stand would be a preacher that would use scatological language. That would not be Biblical. If anybody could direct me to a sermon where Pastor Mark uses such language I'd appreciate it. I know years ago he was dubbed the "cussing Pastor" by this guy who wrote a book (and not a very good one, IMHO). That was more than 12 years ago when Pastor Mark was first starting his church. I think we can all say we have changed over the past 12 years.

I enjoy Phil's blog. In fact I've got it filed with my favorites right under Pastor Mark's. Matter of fact I just picked up a book that I'm enjoying very much on Phil's recommendation. But at this point it sure seems to me that Phil singling out Pastor Mark in this discussion in this way is just wrong. Maybe it'll be more clear in part two why he would mention Pastor Driscoll.

I'm not going to turn this into a Pastor Driscoll apologetic post. I like the guy, it's obvious. I've watched him humbly repent when he has gone wrong but he is a sincere man and very good pastor who loves Jesus and His Church.

Thanks for your time and any insight.

Grace and peace to you,

Scott

Posted by Gabriel Powell   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Scott, have you listened to Mark's sermons on Song of Solomon or his Q&A on sexuality? That should be plenty of material to convince anyone of Mark's impropriety in the pulpit.

Phil's message had nothing to do with "style" (tone of voice, volume, pitch, speed, etc.). It had to do with soundness of speech and life, not soundness of doctrine.

Posted by Ian Hall   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Make no mistake about it Driscoll and his fellow travellers are hurting. Johnson's message was right on the money and Pastor Mark knows it. Well done Phil Johnson.

Posted by Gabriel Powell   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

"Could it have been a coincidence that Driscoll posted that soon after Phil's message?."

If you look at the prior few days, it appears he was spending time in Proverbs, so it may have been. Let us not be too quick to judge by performing eisegesis on Mark's twittering.

Posted by Mary Palshan   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

How can ***anyone*** defend what this man preaches from the pulpit? I cannot believe Christians are even having conversations like this. His version of the Song of Solomon should be enough to make all of us rise up in protest. Mark knows deep in his heart he is doing wrong, so we need to pray for this man. I know I have.

Is John Piper, who happens to be one of my **all-time favorite theologians**, still supporting him? I hope NOT!

God will not be mocked!!!

Posted by Scott McIntosh   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Hi Gabriel, Thanks for your reply. I have listened to the first sermon in the series and the Q&A wrap up at the end of the series. If you could give me a particular sermon in the series that highlights these improprieties let me know I'd like to watch it.

quote from Phil's seminar text:"I'm deeply concerned about the tendency of so many pastors lately to employ profanity, crude and obscene words, vile subject matter, carnal topics, graphic sexual imagery, erotic language, and filthy jokes."

Maybe there is a sermon that employs these tactics. If you or anyone knows which one please direct me to it. Thanks.

Another quote from seminar:"And what should stand out most prominently when someone analyzes our style of ministry? What would YOU want the New York Times to focus on if they did an article analyzing your style?"

Gabriel, this may be were I came up with the thought that Phil was more concerned about style as opposed to sound preaching.

Gabriel, just want to say that I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm hear to learn and I appreciate your insight and thoughts. Pastor Mark can be abrasive and blunt sometimes but I have found his teaching sound and Biblical. If Pastor Mark would ever be found to not be Biblical and unrepentant if taken task then I would back away from his teaching and pray for his restoration.

Thanks again,


Mary,

As for as I know, unless the schedule has been changed, I will be joining Pastor Piper and Pastor Driscoll and many others next month at the Gospel Coalition Conference in Chicago. So it looks like at this point Pastor Piper is still "supporting" Pastor Driscoll.

Grace and peace to you,

Scott

Posted by Pulpit Magazine   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Scott,

Mark Driscoll’s use of “racy” and irreverent imagery is fairly well-known (such that even The New York Times Magazine highlighted it just two months ago.) A few examples might include:

- his crass use of Ecclesiastes 9:10 (from a video shown on Valentine’s Day of this year.) The NY Times article picked up on that same joke. Link: http://theologica.blogspot.com/2009/02/mark-driscoll-on-cnn.html

- the homosexual overtones of this joke about Christ (based on an allegorical understanding of the Song of Solomon series). Link: http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=6913

- the crassness of his “frank” discussions on sex from a Sunday church service (from 2008). Link: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/birth-control/live-q-a

- the crude pastoral advice he gave a young man in his church (in Confessions of a Reformation Rev.) Link: http://www.challies.com/archives/book-reviews/confessions-of.php

- his tasteless description of Mary, the mother of Jesus (in Vintage Jesus). Link: http://www.challies.com/archives/book-reviews/book-review-vintage-jesus-by-mark-driscoll.php

- the fact that his website links to a soft-porn site (under the guise of giving marital help). [No link provided. Purposefully.]

The list could go on . . . another article (found here: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/driscoll_michels.pdf) details some of these things. These are examples of what Phil addressed. As the rest of Phil’s articles will show, such antics are antithetical to passages like Titus 2:7–8 and Ephesians 5:3–4. Creating sensual images in the mind of the listener promotes the flesh, not holiness.

Since you mentioned “scatological language” here is a quote from Driscoll in which he defends his use of what he earlier calls “poopy comedy” (from this video: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/religionsaves/humor).

Quote: The Bible also includes something that The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery calls “scatological humor.” I’ve been accused of this and it’s biblical. “Scatological humor” for those of you who are in public school, scat-a-lo-gi-cal – poopy comedy. That’s what it is, scatological humor.

Posted by Pulpit Magazine   |  Monday, Mar 9, 2009   

Note: for some reason the html tags in the comments are not working ... we will do our best to get those fixed ... hence the "plain text" approach of the above.

Posted by Gabriel Powell   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Scott, I appreciate your humble tone and desire to get perspective. Pulpit just gave numerous examples. I pointed you to Song of Solomon because in it he takes poetic language and turns it into literal one-to-one correspondance with body parts and sexual activity. That, of course, is a total misrepresentation of poetry of any kind and takes what many have considered the raciest portion of Scripture to another level it wasn't intended to go. The poetic language is implicit, Mark made it explicit.

No, Mark hasn't used four letter words recently. But when he gets on what should be a discreet issue, he speaks as though in the locker room and not in the pulpit.

I don't know if they still do it, but not too long ago (less than two years ago) they had movie nights at the church where they would watch a movie and then discuss it. Inside the church they would watch movies with all sorts of filth (Crash was one of them). When you have to stand up before a movie being shown at church and "warn" the audience that there will be nudity and heavy sexual content and they can feel free to leave the room.... there is something wrong.

If these examples do not suffice, I would have to ask what your definition of impropriety is and what you would classify as crass and whatnot (without giving explicit examples).

If you haven't heard it, I also recommend Phil's message on Ephesians 5:3-7 which ties right into this. http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com/philsermons.htm

Gabriel

Posted by Hayden Norris   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Scott,

I too have listened to Mark for about 2 years. I appreciated his series on Philippians but think Phil is dead on in this case. An example of a sermon that is 'out of bounds' is in the Vintage Jesus series titled something like 'The Humanity of Jesus'.

Scott, I would like to hear you deal with the content of Phil's message not some much who he addressed (by the way he only mentioned Mark 2x). Phil's exegesis was perfectly accurate from what I have studied. Do you have any quibbles with what he said? Forget the people and the personalities and look at the content of the message. Take Mark out of the equation and listen to what Phil said. I did and was very enlightened.

Posted by Scott McIntosh   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Hey Pulpit,

Thanks for the links to some of the issues that concern you about Pastor Mark. I was familiar with everything listed. I did appreciate how Tim Challies handled any objections he had with Pastor Driscoll. Those interested can read the reviews from the links provided.

Since you mentioned that I mentioned scatological language, I used it in a way that did not convey my thoughts. Thanks for the link though. I did not realize that Pastor Driscoll had discussed that. I learned a great deal from Dr. Mohler and his teachings on scatological language. What I was trying to say is that I would not stand for a pastor who used vile, disgusting, filthy profanity in the pulpit and I have not come across that in regards to Pastor Mark's preaching. As I checked the links provided it still seems to come down to a style of delivery conflict. I do believe to say, "his crass use of Ecclesiastes 9:10" is not fair. If you are referring to the interview he did on CNN, he was referring to someone talking to him and trying to use the passage in a completely wrong and inappropriate way.

Really no reason to hit all the bullet points. We just do not see eye to eye. I am glad that none of these issues seems to be a Salvation issue.

Thanks for your help and insight and all you do,

Grace and peace to you,

Scott

Posted by Scott McIntosh   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Hey Gabriel,

Thank you as well for your humbleness and desire to help. I've enjoyed posting with you. Any chance you might be going to the Gospel Coalition conference? It would be great to sit and have fellowship with you.

Hayden,

I would love to take Pastor Mark out of the equation but Phil seem to think it best not too(Pastor Mark is the only guy mentioned). All I will say is that he has a valid point and message that is obscured by the fact that he mentioned Pastor Mark at all. For a really great massage on this subject that is handled in a gentle, humble, loving and teaching way, I would suggest checking out Dr. Albert Mohler's site:

http://www.albertmohler.com/

Grace and peace to you,

Scott

Posted by Tony Zabala   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

You can also add to the Driscoll list his recent on line book called Porn Again. Driscoll's frank discusson about pornography and mastrubation. Josh Harris' book Not Even A Hint was a much more edifying book. I couldn't even get past reading the first few pages of Driscoll's book.

Posted by Hayden Norris   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Scott,

I read Dr Mohler often and listen to him as well. Phil did a great job exegeting the text, would you agree?

Posted by Patrick Lacson   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Phil -

Great message! Even if you didn't mention any names I think everyone would have known exactly whom you were talking about. I appreciate you dealing with the text and welcoming comments by others who are also wrestling with the text. Your example about how the current TV news reporters lack vulgar language was spot on.

Scott -
At what point would you consider mentioning names?

Posted by Scott McIntosh   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Hey Hayden,

"Phil did a great job exegeting the text, would you agree?"

I would agree, his exegesis was fine. I just feel he could have made his exegesis without mentioning Pastor Mark. Thanks for the post.

As I said I've watched, read and listened to Pastor Mark fairly closely for about two years now. I've watched him repent, change and grow. I have personally benefited from his exegesis and grown closer to Jesus. Pastor Mark has stumbled like we all do. From what I've seen, when Pastor Mark makes a, what some people call crass, comment it is in the context of making a very blunt point, not to shock or offend (unless it would offend in the way The Gospel should). And he always brings it home by making the pulpit, I'll use a line from Phil's seminar, "a place where God's Word is to be proclaimed and God's truth is to be elevated in worship.

I do hope that if other leaders I respect and follow have a real problem with Pastor Mark being a stumbling block for the Gospel that they will make there concerns known. As I said earlier I'm heading to the Gospel Coalition Conference next month where Pastor Mark and these other leaders that I follow, respect and love will be.

For more comments, thoughts and such on this topic check out Phil's blog. Last I checked there was over 220 remarks.
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/

Blessings,

Scott


Patrick,

"At what point would you consider mentioning names?"

That can be a tough call. There are times that names should be mentioned for sure. For example, I have absolutly no problem dropping names when it comes to heresy. So I mention names like McLaren, Paggit and Jones all the time. But at this stage of the subject at hand in Phil's seminar I believe mentioning Pastor Mark was not well advised IMHO. And that's all it is, my opinion. Thanks for the post.

Grace and peace to you,

Scott






Posted by Dave Norton   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Phil Johnson referenced Driscoll's "joke" regarding Ecclesiastes 9:10. I heard Driscoll tell this "joke" before, and I found myself chuckling, regrettably so. Phil made a very good point in that this verse now brings to mind something gross, disgusting, and sinful instead of the truth in many, many, many people's minds, including myself. Why would anyone who loves the truth want to do that? - either be filled with sinful thoughts when it pertains to Scripture or be the one filling other's minds with those types of thoughts as opposed to the truth of Scripture? To me, it doesn't seem like "delivery" as much as a complete lack of reverence for the Word of God as well as not "carefully handling the Word of Truth". ( 2 Timothy 2:15) Furthermore, as Phil points out in the verses that follow (v.16 & 17) "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness and their talk will spread like gangrene".

Posted by Scott McIntosh   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Hello all,

Is anybody here planning on going to the Gospel Coalition Conference next month? If anybody here is going and would like to meet for fellowship and conversation on this important subject send me a line an the contact page. I always enjoy fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Thanks,

Scott

Posted by Gabriel Powell   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Scott, sorry I won't be there... have a great time!

Posted by Hayden Norris   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Me neither. I am off to Ligoneir's in a week., Sorry Scott.

I would say that Mark has brought this upon himself. I know Phil and he is the kind of serious man that does not go off half cocked. (He also is no no fun fundy) I have watched just about every interview that Mark has done recently, and listened to numerous sermons and would come to a far different conclusion than you. I had hoped that change was coming when he talked about it in his sermon on humility in Philippians 2. Lately, I'm not so sure. His sermon on 'Humor' ( 1 year ago) was lacking when it came to reverence (Noah = redneck was not funny), and more recently he seems to be going back to the things that he has repented of before. Listen to things that are 3-5 years old and listen to sermons preached today. (I would also argue that the pulpit is not the place to work these things out either. There must be a higher standard for the one who proclaims)

It pains me to say it, but Phil is right on this one. Young Pastors all across the country are imitating him. (Just look at the preponderance of sermons on Song of Solomon all of a sudden) I have read 2 of his books and would not recommend either of them to members of my congregation. People are following along in his shoes, he is really the leader and in that sense he needs to be called to account.

Scott, Phil was right on to name names. Everyone in that place knew what he was talking about and I would guess a majority of them had Driscoll in mind. Rank heresy should be called out (Padgitt) but error in methodology and doctrine should as well (Whitefield called out Wesley, Spurgeon called out everyone, why are we so afraid of calling a spade a spade??). Did you have the same problem when Rick Warren was mentioned in years past? What about when Young was mentioned here? Why or why not? It seems to me that you like Driscoll and his methodology and want to make excuses for his humor. (I know what that is like I did it for 2 years) The DL Hugley interview pushed me over the top and this sermon helped me to see the biblical basis.

Posted by Robert Briggs   |  Tuesday, Mar 10, 2009   

Thoroughly enjoyed my second Shepherds Conference, Grace Community Church certainly know how to put on a great Conference, their warmth and graciousness is a great testimony of grace. Those of us who travelled down from Immanuel Baptist Church of Sacramento were encouraged, edified and stirred to continue steadfast in the Lord.

One matter that many have evidently gone away thinking about was Phil Johnson's message on Friday morning. I believe that his thesis was spot on and needed to be said and I was helped and challenged by his reminder to be a man of appropriate speech as a minister of the New Covenant. A reminder we all must heed everytime we step into the pulpit.

I am however curious about one thing. I have read the transcripts and in looking for the reference Phil made to Mark Driscoll's 'joke' on the CNN interview I cannot find it. I was there in the plenary session and heard him reference it but it is not in the transcript as far as I can see, can anyone explain why? Am I missing something? My reason for asking is that I wanted to check exactly what Phil said with what I subsequently researched in terms of Mark Driscoll's actual statement. My reason being that what I thought I heard Phil say and what I subsequently heard Mark say do not seem to agree in my conscience.

I would like to be able to clear my conscience on this matter. My problem is not the substance of Phil's address, it was excellent, it is rather the matter of accuracy and truthfulness regarding this issue of Mark's so called 'joke'. If we are going to engage in debate truth and accuracy must be maintained at every level. Presently my conscience sits uneasy that what I recall Phil saying and what I subsequently heard Mark saying are not the same. This is not a comment on the issue at hand, that is clear cut. It is rather and concern for love rejoicing in the truth and not in inaccurate representation.

Brothers any help would be appreciated.

Posted by Hayden Norris   |  Wednesday, Mar 11, 2009   

Robert,

Remember Phil said that he was going to paraphrase what Mark said. I have seen two interviews (One on Nightline, one on CNN's DL Hughley show) where Mark was talking about Ecc 9:10 and saying that there was a person in his congregation misusing it. (That is about as far as I will go with that statement). Phil was right that, now when I think of Ecc 9:10 I think of Mark's joke and not the content that was in the original text. Hope this helps. Go back to the audio of the Shepherd's Conference and listen to what Phil said and I think this will clear it up. Even though it was not Mark D. misusing this he was trying to be funny. (This is clear in teh Hughley interview, watch it)

Posted by Jonathan Martinez   |  Wednesday, Mar 11, 2009   

From a Hispanic perspective, if it at all has any value, Me and my brother had the opportunity to hear Mark Driscoll at John Pipers Conference, My brother didnt like him due to the fact that he made his personality and style more important than learning Bible truths. I personally thought he watched alot of Jay Leno and got hooked on him, in spanish television there is this guy named "Adal Ramones" that is very similar in style with Mark Driscoll, very cool, very savy, very dirty mouthed. But hey, that gives him the great ratings and the show that he has. I wonder if Mark would stop being all that, would he get the attention of his church members if he wasnt have to be to hip. Cause you know, hip gets old, in any culture. I wonder what if Mark would be invited to speak at my hispanic church, i sure couldnt get away with translating, and knowing my people, even those who dont beleive in Christ, in our culture a clean mouth is respectful, a dirty mouth is shameful.

We on the other hand, represent Christ, therefore we speak his words.

In Christ and for his Glory
Jonathan Martinez Vargas

Phil: Thanks for standing up. For His Word and the Gospel. (A Clear Gospel)

Posted by Robert Briggs   |  Thursday, Mar 12, 2009   

Haydn

I have checked it and have cleared it up. You are right Haydn, and Phil posting the final section helped. I do believe Mark would be best advised to stop using that 'joke' as it is not funny in the slightest and as Phil says it creates images in the mind that we would all rather not have.

Thanks

RB



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