The Rape of Solomon's Song (Part 3)

Pulpit Magazine April 16, 2009

(By John MacArthur)

[Editor's Note: Readers should be warned that this article contains offensive material. Nonetheless, it is included here for the sake of substantiating the thesis of this article.]

I emphatically agree with those who say the Song of Solomon is not mere allegory. It is best understood when we take it at face value, like any other text of Scripture. Many interpreters whom I otherwise hold in high esteem (including Spurgeon and most of the Puritans) have unfortunately done more to confuse than clarify the Song's message by treating it in a purely allegorical fashion that eliminates its primary meaning.

Solomon's Song is, as I've said from the outset, a love poem between Solomon and his bride, celebrating their mutual love for one another, including the delights of the marriage bed. To interpret this—or any other portion of Scripture—in a purely allegorical fashion is to treat the interpreter's own imagination as more authoritative than the plain meaning of the text.

However, those who pretend to know the meanings of poetic symbols that are not clearly identifiable from the text itself commit the very same error. Their speculation is likewise a way of exalting their own imaginations to a higher level of authority than the plain sense of the text.

That's a particular problem when the interpreter sees a mandate for oral sex in the simple metaphor of a fruit tree or imagines that the best way to contextualize and illustrate portions of the text is by verbally undressing his own wife in order to make the point as vivid as possible. In such a case, not only has the speaker given far too much weight to his own speculative imagination; he has given a fairly clear signal that his imagination is not altogether pure (Luke 6:45).

And that is a far more serious problem than merely allegorizing the text.

By no means do I want to minimize the dangers of allegorizing the text. That approach to hermeneutics is full of mischief, even in the hands of pure-minded men who are generally sound in their doctrine. I don't approve of allegorical flights of fancy, especially with a text like Song of Solomon, which poses enough difficulties with the obvious built-in metaphors and poetic language it features.

Allegorizers of the Song of Solomon generally see it as an expression of tender mutual love between Christ and His church. Most of them would say that Christ is represented by the voice of Solomon; the church is represented by the voice of the Shulamite. Some interpreters go further yet and imagine they hear three or more voices speaking out of the text. (Invariably those who multiply the voices try to make the verses fit some complex libretto that arises more out of their own personal agenda than from the text itself.)

Still, regardless of how many voices are heard and who is supposedly speaking, nearly all who allegorize this poem see it as a canticle of love between Christ and the church. It's probably fair to say that this allegorical view focusing on Christ and the church has been the dominant interpretation of the poem throughout church history.

That, of course, doesn't make it right. I happen to think it is not the correct approach to interpreting this text. But it's not a view that ought to be dismissed with vulgar contempt—especially with a coarse joke attributing homosexual behavior to Christ.

If you have heard any of Mark Driscoll's teaching on the Song of Solomon, you have surely heard his joke in that vein. For example, in the sermon that prompted me to write these articles, Driscoll says, "Some have allegorized this book, and in so doing, they have destroyed it. They have destroyed it. They will say that it is an allegory between Jesus and his bride the church. Which if true, is weird. Because Jesus is having sex with me and puts his hand up my shirt. And that feels weird. I love Jesus, but not in that way."

Driscoll has said almost the exact same thing in at least three other sermons. For example: “Jesus keeps making out with me and touching me in inappropriate places.” “Now I’m gay, or highly troubled, or both.” “As a guy, I do not feel comfortable with Jesus, like you know, kissing me and touching me and taking me to bed. Okay? I feel sort of very homo-erotic about that kind of view of Song of Solomon.”

Even in his most recent Peasant Princess series, he repeats a version of that very same joke:

Now what happens is some say "Well, we do believe in the book [of Song of Solomon], and we will teach it, but we're gonna teach it allegorically." And there's a literal and an allegorical interpretation. They'll say, "Well the allegorical interpretation, it's not between a husband and a wife, Song of Solomon, love and romance and intimacy; what it is, it's about us and Jesus." Really? I hope not. [Laughter from crowd] If I get to heaven and this goes down, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I mean it's gonna be a bad day. Right? I mean seriously. You dudes know what I'm talking about. You're like, "No, I'm not doing that. You know I'm not doing that. I love Him [Jesus] but not like that." [Laughter from crowd]

Driscoll blew off criticism about that kind of joking by claiming it's not blasphemy because it has nothing to do with the "real" Jesus. He says he is simply making fun of a false notion about Jesus. And he continues making the joke.Here's the problem with that: Scripture clearly teaches that the love between a husband and wife in all its aspects is a metaphor for Christ and the Church (Ephesians 5:31-32).

Thus even a non-allegorical interpretation of Song of Solomon, (simply taking the love-song between Solomon and the Shulamite at face value) ultimately points us to Christ and his love for the church. The text ought to be handled by the preacher accordingly, not as an excuse to bathe in the gutter of our culture's easygoing obsession with crude sex-talk and graphic sexual imagery.

Some who have commented on these articles have suggested that I ought to give a full exposition of Solomon's Song rather than merely critiquing the bad interpreters and decrying the contemporary church's fixation with sex.

That would require a long series, and I'd prefer not to devote weeks of time on this blog to a topic that I have raised only in order to make a simple, single-pointed admonition. But those wondering what my exposition of Solomon's Song would be like will find full notes on the text in The MacArthur Study Bible.

Those notes should be a sufficient answer to the commenter who pretended to wonder if I am saying it would be better not to comment on Song of Solomon at all.

Of course that is not what I am saying, nor can anyone claim that I have even implied anything of the sort—without twisting my words or putting their words in my mouth. (That literally happened in a string of comments at another blog where this issue was under discussion. An early commenter accused me of opposing line-by-line exposition of the Song. Halfway down the comments, people were putting that claim in quotation marks, attributing it to me.)

What I am saying is that the bounds of propriety—especially when dealing with subjects like sex—should be set by whatever text we are dealing with. To interpret beautiful poetry by translating it into scurrilous soft-porn is to corrupt the most fundamental intent of the text.

This is nowhere near as difficult to grasp as some are pretending, but perhaps a simple parallel will suffice: There are other private body functions and "less honorable" or "unpresentable" body parts (1 Corinthians 12:23). We find these mentioned or alluded to at times in Scripture without ever being too specific. We all would be rightly offended if the preacher gave a long, descriptive discourse or how-to instructions in the Sunday worship service, outlining these "unpresentable" things.

For stronger reasons than simple modesty, certain acts involving fornication, autoeroticism, and other things people commonly "do in secret" are shameful to talk about in any public context (Ephesians 5:12), much less a church service. They may be suitable subjects for a private counseling session, or the doctor's office, or a college biology lecture, but they are not fitting topics for a worship service where God should be glorified, Christ should be uplifted, women should be shown respect, children's innocence should be guarded, and single people's prurient curiosities should not unnecessarily be enflamed.

When a speaker deliberately arouses lusts that cannot possibly be righteously fulfilled in unmarried college students, or when his personal illustrations fail to guard the privacy and honor of his own wife, that is far worse than merely inappropriate. When done repeatedly and with the demeanor of an immature bad-boy, such a practice reflects a major character defect that is spiritually disqualifying. Any man who makes such things the main trademark of his style is quite simply not above reproach.

As recently as a decade ago, that point of view would not have raised a peep of controversy.

The fact that it is so controversial now is simply more proof that evangelicals have become too much like the world, and too comfortable with the evil characteristics of our culture.

Tomorrow, Lord willing, I'll post the final installment in this series. Several questions have come up repeatedly from people who have commented on these articles, and in tomorrow's final installment, I want to answer as many of them as possible.

101 Responses to
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1 Kendall Coffman Thu, Apr 16, 2009 03:38.04 AM

I have read the 3 Pulpit Magazine articles this week, but to be honest, have done so reluctantly. I will admit that they have pushed the line of my conscience. Why? I am repeatedly struck with the question, "Why is this issue being handled publicly? - on a blog no less." I mean is the intent of these articles to call Mark Driscoll to step out of ministry? It seems to appear that this is one of the intentions. Here is a quote from today's post:

"When done repeatedly and with the demeanor of an immature bad-boy, such a practice reflects a major character defect that is spiritually disqualifying. Any man who makes such things the main trademark of his style is quite simply not above reproach."

Maybe, in tomorrow's post, when you handle questions you can tackle this one. What is the purpose and intent of doing all this on a public bulletin board? Please don't misunderstand, I am completely in agreement with the content of these articles. But, are they justified to be flung into the open air?

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2 Shaun Tabatt Thu, Apr 16, 2009 04:24.84 AM

I'm glad to see that there is actually something specific quoted from The Peasant Princess series in part 3 of the article. It would be helpful for the readers to know which sermon in the series this actually comes from. I tend to agree that at face value Driscoll's humor can at times be shocking and troubling to some. While it's often over the top, he usually is trying to drive a greater point. In the quote you give above, I think he's using humor to express his own frustration and the frustration of many of his male listeners to fully grasp the concept of being a part of the bride of Christ.

Bible Geek Gone Wild

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3 Keith Ingram Thu, Apr 16, 2009 04:27.53 AM

I have the same two questions as Kendall. Why do this? and why do this, this way?

Plus, I have another question. Why Mark Driscoll in particular? Why not go after Rick Warren and his waffling on Prop 8? why not go after any one of dozens of "emerging church" leaders who deny the core doctrines of the faith? Specifically why not go after Tony Jones for his explicit rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin and his endorsement of Pelagius?

My point is that there is outright heresy to combat and there are other examples of prominent leaders compromising principles to remain popular. Why does Mark Driscoll get this level of sustained public attention?



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4 D. L. Kane Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:03.36 AM

Dr. MacArthur, when you say "It's probably fair to say that this allegorical view focusing on Christ and the church has been the dominant interpretation of the poem throughout church history". Should we actually conclude that all of these great men of God have been wrong, confused, misguided, ignorant, and immature and that you have been given a superior knoweldge, understanding and ability to set the record straight by correcting the teaching of Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, J.C Ryle, and all those called by God to teach and preach (who have been misleading generations of Christians my their misinterpretations--in your opinion) throughout church history?" Are you aware of the arrogance and intellectual pride your statements expose.

I am amazed that you cannot see this--listen to what you are saying, "It is best understood when we take it at face value, like any other text of Scripture. Many interpreters whom I otherwise hold in high esteem (including Spurgeon and most of the Puritans) have unfortunately done more to confuse than clarify the Song's message by treating it in a purely allegorical fashion that eliminates its primary meaning."

God uses allegories throughtout scripture in order to teach us about His love for us. Should one take the following passage from Ezekiel "at face value, like any other text of Scripture"? Imagine the results of one doing so. They would miss the whole point.

And as for your birth, on the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to cleanse you, nor rubbed with salt, nor wrapped in swaddling cloths. No eye pitied you, to do any of these things to you out of compassion for you, but you were cast out on the open field, for you were abhorred, on the day that you were born.

"And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' I made you flourish like a plant of the field. And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full adornment. Your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare.

"When I passed by you again and saw you, behold, you were at the age for love, and I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness; I made my vow to you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord GOD, and you became mine. Then I bathed you with water and washed off your blood from you and anointed you with oil. I clothed you also with embroidered cloth and shod you with fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk And I adorned you with ornaments and put bracelets on your wrists and a chain on your neck. And I put a ring on your nose and earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head.

Enough has been said. I certainly hope you will step back and re-evaluate your own opinion of yourself for it seems very clear to me, that you hold yourself in way too high esteem. I am not saying this to be unkind; I am saying this because I have a feeling that those in your closest circles, who should be telling you this, are not.

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5 Todd Burus Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:07.07 AM

For the most part in reading this article, and often times among the many criticisms I have read of Driscoll in places like Baptist Press, the commentators remarks are speaking of Driscoll offending some standard that they have set up, Driscoll transgressing some maginot line that they have created to protect God. When MacArthur says things like, "In such a case, not only has the speaker . . . has given a fairly clear signal that his imagination is not altogether pure (Luke 6:45), " and "When a speaker deliberately arouses lusts . . . or when his personal illustrations fail to guard the privacy and honor of his own wife," it seems clear to me that he is imposing his own ideas of what is "pure" and what is "deliberate" and what is "honoring," but are these really such hard and fast categories that Driscoll can be accused of stepping outside of?

Furthermore, it may appear as "bl[owing] off criticism" to MacArthur, but for people who have followed Driscoll's ministry they would be familiar with him attacking these false perceptions of Christ, often times through showing them to be comical and beyond taking seriously. Again, MacArthur may think that in poor taste, but to accuse Driscoll of just not caring is silly seeing as how he has written a book which is aimed almost primarily at blowing up false Chrsitologies and replacing them with the correct one. Maybe their discomfort means that certain people should not listen to his sermons or read his books, but I think one should be careful to not come off so subjective when trying to accuse him of blasphemy and crude intentions. If we are talking about characteristics of a persons ministry, there often times seems to be a whole principle of charity among the family of Christ which MacArthur's commentary seems to characteristically lack. More than anything that appears to be the issue with this whole series.

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6 Robert Hayton Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:21.61 AM

I too am glad for some more specifics in this post. It also is nice to see Pastor John interacting, or planning to interact with some of the commenters a bit. That will be helpful for many.

Also from the post and the particular example given, we do see a progression in Driscoll with the most recent series being better on that line than others. I do hope Driscoll is wising up and growing. I can see how an off-color joke like that would offend many, and I don't really want to defend that either. I can see how someone else in a different context/culture than I could not see a problem with that joke, but I think they would need to be sensitive to how it could be taken. I think he is sensitive and has begun to change course. It is something used for dramatic effect, and all preachers are guilty from time to time of aiming for that at the expense of more clarity with the text or faithfulness to it, I'd dare say.

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7 don sands Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:24.81 AM

Thanks Pastor MacArthur. That was excellent. Thank you for being faithful to keep the Word of God pure.

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8 Carla Rolfe Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:38.03 AM

I've read these first three installments and very much appreciate them. Pastor John is saying the exact same thing many folks have been saying for years about Pastor Mark's seeming obsession with intimate things and crude humor. I honestly hope Pastor Mark is considering these things and making them a matter of prayer.

The one thing I always find interesting is the question that says "hey, this isn't right, you should go to him privately" when a public critique is made of Pastor Mark. I'm not sure why people say that. Pastor Mark's sermons are made public intentionally, so why should critique of those sermons be done privately? Do folks apply the same to their own public critique of folks like Warren, or other well known Christian leaders? No, they don't - this cry for "this isn't fair, go to him privately!" seems to only be reserved for Pastor Mark.

I wonder if someone who is perfectly okay with public critique of folks like Warren, can defend their requests for PRIVATE critique of folks like Driscoll, and explain Biblically how and why they differ. If it is Biblical that this all be done privately then I'd like to hear that argument and also see it put into practice for all professing Christians, and not just Driscoll. That seems fair to me.

Maybe Pastor John can answer this question in tomorrow's installment, since it comes up EVERY single time anyone publicly critiques Pastor Mark. I hope so, it would be nice to see it settled one way or the other.

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9 Kendall Coffman Thu, Apr 16, 2009 06:15.12 AM

Carla -

I am not disagreeing with the fact that public sin demands public correction or rebuke. I am a firm believer that the exposure, correction, and repentance should go as deep as the offense has gone.

However, this latest article (part 3) seems to be taking this "debate" a bit further by implying that Pastor Driscoll is unfit for ministry using phrases like "spiritually disqualifying" and "simply not above reproach." So, have we now stepped beyond the boundaries of admonition and into the realm of declaring open season on Driscoll's role as a pastor? Are we now rallying a call for his resignation? To me, this is a far greater issue than a simple rebuke or correction, and one that SHOULD NOT be done publicly. That is the question that I am hoping is addressed in tomorrow's post.

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10 Hayden Norris Thu, Apr 16, 2009 06:15.39 AM

First of all everyone needs to read 1 John 4:1-6 and think through this situation carefully. I think Mark D. needs to hear this rebuke from a man that has faithfully exposited the word for longer than he has been alive. If an older Pastor, who had solidly exposited the Scripture, rebuked me for my language or anything in the pulpit I would stop and listen carefully. I really have high hopes for Mark D. and him changing some of his antics. (Yes I have listened to him for 3 years now and to be honest I have winced every once in a while)

Second for those wanting this to be done in private they should read 1 Timothy 5:20-22. You say, that is the local church. Ok, I agree but does that mean that Pastors shouldn't rebuke each other in public when their works are in public. See many of you are missing the point here. Pastor Mark is a LEADER who influences MANY younger pastors. This has to be done in the open for their benefit as well. Mark leads Acts 29 which is a good church planting organization. I would like to see someone go thorough and see how many of those churches are doing series on Song of Solomon right now due to his example. See Mark's teaching isn't just constrained to his church. I remember when he was doing a series on Philippians many of the Acts 29 churches were doing the same. This is not by mandate, but by imitation. If Mark was just a guy in Seattle in his local church I would not be so concerned, but his influence is massive. What he does is often multiplied greatly and sometimes in that multiplication it is taken further than even Mark would be comfortable with. This is not Mark's fault, per say, but MacArthur is addressing this for their sake as well.

Look, I like many things about Mars Hill Church in Seattle. I love that Mark Driscoll is preaching the Word. I love that he is being discipled by godly men (CJ Mahaney, DA Cars, etc). I pray for Mark weekly and the area that concerns me most is his language. Trust me, I am not Victorian. I am a former sailor and 2 years younger than Mark. I will continue to pray for him and hope that he grows in this way.

Thank you Dr. MacArthur for taking time to address this issue. It has bothered me for sometime as well. I long for the day when one of the college students that I teach comes up to me and asks 'What do you think about Mark Driscoll?' and I can say "I love what he is doing in Seattle' without having to make excuses and apology for his language.

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11 William du Plooy Thu, Apr 16, 2009 06:41.78 AM

May I just say that from other and previous articles published by Shepherd's Fellowship (Which is in itself meant to be a Community of Likeminded brethren), Pyromaniacs (Which you have the choice to ignore or avoid completely or at times) and other likeminded ministries; it seemed to me that Pastors MacArthur and Johnson and others in the Biblically Historical Christian tradition have ALREADY written and attempted to correspond PRIVATELY with Mr Driscoll concerning his provocative behaviour in the Pulpit.

By provocative I understand that sexual innuendo and foul or at the very least irreverent use of language where the main points of concern for brother Driscoll.

The Biblical requirements for two or more men to confirm a matter was established even if you consider others outside of Grace Community Church and her ministries also calling brother Driscoll to repentance and holiness.

Therefore, as seems to have been widely reported, if brother Driscoll proclaims with his mouth that he DID indeed repent; but by his ACTIONS he denies that repentance; it is fit to Biblical discipline for other ElderS (Note that Multiples have been reported to have called upon Mr Driscoll to do so); for the sake of the flock and for the Glory of our Holy and Almighty Great I AM; to hence step up that Elder Biblical Discipline to inform the Whole Body of Christ. Now we may ask WHY ON THE INTERNET? - Because Mr Driscoll has become one of the many men who have become a part of the "Celebrity Culture of the pulpit" in our modern world which elevates men above their responsibilities and Mr. Driscoll has spoken PUBLICLY via the Internationally Accessible media as an Elder of Christ's Body, therefore it is at the same LEVEL of PUBLIC Forum that the discipline is to be taken, otherwise the Disciplining Elders will have neglected their RESPONSIBILTY to the LORD and His Body, wherever they have heard or accessed these talks in the Public arena.

I realize that not all our brethren see that the requirements of Scripture and the LORD for holiness and blamelessness (Especially to the outside unregenerate PUBLIC world's gaze), in the requirements and responsibilities of character for the office of a Pastor/Elder/Bishop/Teacher/Preacher/Theologian, are to the glory of the Name above all names. That indeed the OFFICE, DUTIES and RESPONSIBILITIES of that office is Directly Linked to the honour, and glory of our Great King, of whom those in this office are Ambassadors in the sight of a resentful and hate filled world that would jump upon any opportunities to point out the PUBLIC IRREVERRANCES and SINS of Elders, to give opportunity to blaspheme the LORD Himself.

Would, unto the LORD, that we have the humility of heart to accept the breach of our Personal Integrity in the Public Arena, that we would revere and fear the LORD enough not to give cause for offending His Name amongst the unregenerate.
Have we not learned anything from the deaths of those who attempted to serve the LORD in the Hebrew Scriptures according to their own desired ways and means of service, which where just DIFFERENT from His declared ways and desires in service?
Do you see how seriously He takes His appointment of Elders, as He did with Priests? Did we forget WHY SAMUEL was appointed as a New Priesthood of service and why Eli, Hophni and Phinehas lives where taken by YAHWEH?
Did we forget WHY Nadab and Abihu had their lives taken by YAHWEH from them?

PRIDE and Self where their root sins, they thought themselves to be of a better office than what they where and set themselves up against our Almighty, they thought it nothing to serve Him THEIR WAYS, against His declared requirements for their offices.

Let us not encourage others to continue in their sins. The heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above ALL else (Jeremiah 17:9), ONLY the LORD knows it better than

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12 Todd Burus Thu, Apr 16, 2009 06:50.79 AM

First off, I would like to say that I have it on good authority that MacArthur has attempted to privately contact Driscoll with his concerns. However, knowing this makes me wonder why he feels it necessary to continue on this public crusade?

I think that what Hayden said should be expounded upon further: Driscoll is being discipled by guys like Mahaney, Carson, and Piper. But you know what? None of these guys saw it fit to throw him under the bus the way MacArthur has. All of these pastors saw that Driscoll was preaching the truth, even if it was polluted by some worldly issues, and have invested themselves in helping him to refine that and remove the dross of the world from the golden message of the gospel that he is so enthusiastic to proclaim.

MacArthur on the other hand has been removed, ever since his comments in 2006, and does not appear to have tried to disciple Driscoll along but simply to undermine him and to allow his words of criticism to be (ab)used as fodder for all other people with an agenda to attack Mark as well. I have been disappointed because I do not feel like MacArthur has exercised care with what he's said, and so I join my voice with the others here asking Dr. MacArthur, What exactly is your point in making these charges against Mark Driscoll?

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13 William du Plooy Thu, Apr 16, 2009 07:08.62 AM

I will add something personal at this late stage:

I have not and CANNOT Even fully read this article because Mr Driscoll' speech herein conjures up past experiences of exploitation of my person by Homosexuals and Paedophiles.

Just the basics quoted here is irreverent, despicable, crude, insensitive, crass, horrific, sensual, debased and from Hell itself.
It makes a mockery of the reverence that ought to be shown by the Oracles of the LORD when acting as those entrusted by Him for the delivery of His Word and will surely offend (Needlessly) many people whom have been sexually exploited as I had been (Inside and Outside the household of Faith).

MARK DRISCOLL:
If you have read this or someone tells you about this – I FEAR FOR YOU, may the LORD grant you repentance and humility becoming a Self-Disqualified Oracle of the LORD whom has sinned against his weaker brethren, the lost and more importantly against the LORD Himself. Just the mere mention of these thing has made me sick and have conjured up sins from the past that the LORD has put away.

EPHESIANS 5:2-4
“And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
But FORNICATION and ALL UNCLEANESS or covetousness, LET IT NOT EVEN BE NAMED AMONG YOU, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor FOOLISH TALKING, nor coarse jesting, which ARE NOT FITTING, but rather giving of thanks.”

You have shamed Christ Himself and me as a brother, by even just the above quoted irreverent foul and horribly despicable speech proceeding from your heart.

I call YOU MR DRISCOLL TO SUBMIT TO the LORD in humility and in a contrite heart, to step down as Elder/Teacher in violation of Ephesians 5:2-4, 1 Timothy 3:2-8, Romans 14 & 15, Galatians 5:13, James 2:12, Titus 1:5-16 & by your conduct conforming also to this pattern in 2 Peter 2:18.

SHAME UPON YOU Mr Driscoll.

Bought at a price, not casting pearls before swine or before any who would trample the mercies of the LORD toward us underfoot as a common thing.
W

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14 William du Plooy Thu, Apr 16, 2009 07:19.26 AM

May I request the brethren to link to Mr Driscolls statements that have been qoted here (For reference, when people may need to see the qouted remarks) and remove his words themselves from the Pulpit Magazine, as I am GREATLY OFFENDED even at their appearance. (I am not offended by my TMS brethren but am by Mr Driscoll and as you can see I have made a Biblical call for his stepping down from the office of Elder/Teacher, as I have cited Biblical warrant for his disqualification.

If however this need to remain in your esteem (For the sake of clarity), may I AT LEAST REQUEST that you put into the FIRST line of the Article in BOLD READ a warning that the qouted words are Highly Offensive Explicit and only for those who can stumic such vulgarity.

Please understand, I am not often drawn in emotionally into any discussion to personalise them, but the wors spoken by Mr Driscoll and quted herewith are OUTRAGIOUS.

I would be glad for Nathan or one of the Elders to contact me privately, as you do have my personal details...

Humbly in tears before the throne of grace,
Your weaker brother,
W

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15 Earl McCullough Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:04.42 AM

I appreciate both mens ministries. I do think Driscoll goes too far at times. I also believe he's trying to grow with the help of mentors like Piper and Mahaney. I think John MacArthur has gone too far here, and I see him doing this sort of thing more and more. It would be far more fruitful to contain the battles to the blatant blasphemers who truly teach a different doctrine. Really, if you think about it, in terms of the relevance and weight of the matters, John MacArthur should write an article in the same tone regarding men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem for not being cessasionists. Perhaps this is more about personality than anything else. With the crazy world we live in, MacArthur could have found a bigger battle to fight than this one, and could have waged it in a much more charitable way than by implying that Driscoll should step down from his ministry. Sad really. Undermining a fruitful God honoring ministry over a few questionable comments. Pastor John, methinks in this case, you have become the one who "crossed the bounds of propriety" (just in a different way than Driscoll)...

1 Tim 6:2-6
Teach and urge these things. If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
(ESV)

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16 Arlen Stuart Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:26.67 AM

D.L. Kane,

You said...

"Should we actually conclude that all of these great men of God have been wrong, confused, misguided, ignorant, and immature and that you have been given a superior knoweldge, understanding and ability to set the record straight by correcting the teaching of Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, J.C Ryle, and all those called by God to teach and preach (who have been misleading generations of Christians my their misinterpretations--in your opinion) throughout church history?" Are you aware of the arrogance and intellectual pride your statements expose."

You're not trying to attribute infallibility to the likes of Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, Ryle, and the rest, are you? How about Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, etc?

Now I agree with the basic point...if an expositor is drawing an interpretation from a text in God's Word that deviates from what has always been understood throughout history to be the meaning...then he must think twice...because there's a good chance he might be wrong.

However, this is not always the case. Sometimes when many men have been coming to the same (but wrong) conclusion...somebody will deviate from the cycle and come to the right conclusion. With all due respect to the Godly men who have gone before us, they too saw through a glass darkly. Not everything they said was spot-on. Not only is it possible for several generations of Godly men to come to a wrong conclusion about a text...I believe that it has happened before.

For example...in Calvin's day, where was Israel? How many of Luther's friends do you suppose were Jews? Is it any surprise that the reformers came to the conclusion that God has no future for Israel and that the church has altogether replaced Israel? In all humility, I would probably be an amillenialist or something similar if I were living in that time. It would seem totally inconsistent with reality for me at believe, at that time, that God was planning to fulfill His promises to the Jews rather than transferring them to the church. However, no matter how many people were riding the no-future-for-Israel bandwagon...it does not mean that they were right.

To borrow another example using general revelation...consider Galileo. EVERYBODY believed that the earth was the center of the universe simply because that's what the traditional belief was at the time (and it was taught by the church). But if I understand history correctly...Galileo was just trying to be honest with the data that he found and in doing so, deviated from tradition. He became convinced that the sun was the center of the universe rather than the earth (and it just so happened that scripture revealed that truth LONG ago).

Was it a statement of intellectual arrogance for Galileo to come to terms with the data he collected? No.

Is it proud to disagree with a Godly man (or even SEVERAL Godly men) who have mishandled the Word of Truth in a particular manner? No.

If I ask my pastor why he believes a certain interpretation of God's Word, I would much rather hear him say:

"Because that is exactly what God's Word (which is infallible) says."

rather than:

"Well...I mean...that's the way that Calvin and Luther (who are fallible) saw it."

Wouldn't you?

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17 Pulpit Magazine Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:39.75 AM

Hi William,

Per your request, we have added a warning at the beginning of the article. Thank you for encouraging us to do so.

Pulpit Staff

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18 William du Plooy Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:40 AM

Arlen,

I agree fully with you and Pastor MacArthur.

Unless we are Establishment advocates (Or Romanists) we wil have severe difficulty in attributing any credit to the person of any man (No matter how much we respect them and how much they contribute to the Kingdom), it is simply the LORD who acts through earthen vessels.

We have nothing to boast of in our human frailties and nor should we ascribe greatness to men (Jesus Himself warned us nit to give praise to Teachers):

Matthew 23:8 (cf. Matthew 23:10)
"But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren."

If Mr Spurgen where here or Luther or Calvin I am CERTAIN that they would conduct themselves in all humility regarding their person and abilitie and give ALL the glory to our Great I AM, in His Trinity of Persons.

We as flock are always called to discern those above us ACCORDING WITH the FINAL AUHORITY OF SCRIPTURE.
If we fail to do this, well it is no wonder we have false "worship" and the traditions of men have crept into the Churches.

I am NOT advocating John MacArthur as equal or greater than say Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon or any other, in fact I affirm what the Apostles taught:
1 Corinthians 1:11-17
"For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect."

We see than that this "Culture of Celebrity" belongs NOT to the Body of Christ, in fact I am convited that it is one of the greatest sins amongst the Redeemed in our day and will only get worse in the future. We have dragged the sinful culture's standards and meausres of success into the Church and pinned them to the Cross as if they beautify Christ.
Let us denounce this sin of Celebrity within the Church and keep ourselves to the Scriptures, teaching and practicing from Scripture Alone.

I think this is also John MacArthur's point.

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19 Lori Mackay Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:58.36 AM

Thank you, Pastor MacArthur. "They are not fitting topics for a worship service where God should be glorified, Christ should be uplifted, women should be shown respect, children's innocence should be guarded, and single people's prurient curiosities should not unnecessarily be enflamed." Were Mark's "jokes" about the Lord uplifting Him and glorifying God? No. Were his graphic descriptions of women's bodies and commands to perform in certain ways showing respect to women? No. (As a woman, I am appalled.) Was he guarding children's innocence? No. Was he enflaming the passions of single people? Yes, by the admission of several of them, that was the effect. To defend or excuse these things is not showing love and grace to him, but just the opposite.

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20 William du Plooy Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:04.79 AM

Pulpit staff and brethren,

I am much grieved, dismayed, hurt and at sorrows and tears; yet I do see the necessity for the words of Mr Driscoll in these articles to be made public, as they reveal the level of depravity of his heart in this matter.

Luke 6:45
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

"As a man speaks so is he."

I thank you for your brotherly love, kindness and affections displayed in reasonable actions of love and faith.

1 Thessalonians 2:4
"But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts."

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21 Casey McNerney Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:13.42 AM

I think it is sad that this is even debated. God's standard hasn't changed because society gets increasingly more wicked. God's standard is, and always has been, holiness. When Isaiah was in the presence of God's holiness the first thing that came to his mind was his shame for his filthy mouth (Isaiah 6:1-5). How could language like is quoted above in this article come from a pulpit and be defended by anyone who has ever read Isaiah 6? From what I read in Scripture of God's holiness and read how whatever we do in word or deed is to be done in the name of the Lord Jesus (Colossians 3:17), I just don't understand how there is even a question about this. Could someone honestly talk that way and end it with "in Jesus' name?"

I also find it interesting how so many who think the criticism of these articles should be done in private don't seem to have a problem with criticising JM here in public - seems a little odd to me.

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22 David Kim Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:20.03 AM

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23 David Kim Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:29.5 AM

In the previous post, a very interesting point was brought up about Scripture and stumbling blocks. Pastor John MacArthur quoted a commentator who said: "...if the interpretation of Scripture proves to be a stumbling block, and a cause of offence to some who believe, what then?" The answer the commentator expects from the reader seems to fall along the lines of the following: "What then? Then Scripture is to blame for causing one to sin." Which sounds heretical in light of what Christ and Paul say about those who cause others to stumble and sin.

But was not Christ a stumbling block? Is Christ then guilty somehow? And Isn't it possible that someone could be stumbled by other portions of Scripture that call men to delight in their wife, to let her breasts satisfy them at all times (Proverbs 5)? I can see how that might somehow lead a weak Christian who has a weak theological understanding of sex to be stumbled. Would Scripture then be responsible for that weak Christian's sin?

Now my question is this:
How are we to reconcile, on one hand, the fact of Christ (and possibly even portions of Scripture about sex) being a stumbling block and, on the other hand, the serious and indicting pronouncements of the Apostle Paul and even Christ himself towards those who are stumbling blocks? The pronouncements against such people who are stumbling blocks are harsh regardless of the fact that some may be stumbling blocks unintentionally and may be stumbling blocks even if they were personally glorifying God by giving thanks in practicing their non-moral activity (1 Corinthians 8:9-12; 1 Corinthians 10:30). So just because you did not intend to stumble another brother does not make you guilt-free if he does stumble.

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24 Russell Carroll Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:34.5 AM

DL Kane - I doubt it would be a shock to the men you list as authoritative (Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, J.C Ryle) that I would take Solomon's own words over there interpretation. I am a just an ordinary layperson, so you can weigh this statement however you wish - the Song of Solomon is to and for husbands and wives and should probably even stay out of the pulpit all together. No one is going to wind up in hell not having heard this book.

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25 William du Plooy Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:37.11 AM

Ours is not to reason but obey (Romans 14 & 15 is that call to obedience). If you ignore the call to obedience do so at your own peril.

Where Scripture is clear, I do not question it's Authority; but my interpretation or heart.

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26 Jesse Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:42.18 AM

David,

The difference is that Christ is a stumbling block to those who are outside of the Gospel. A preacher should not use overly explicit sexual language from a pulpt on a Sunday morning that could likely pose a stumbling block to Christians fighting against sin. It is a case of stumbling the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

Non-believers will stumble over the Gospel and the person of Jesus every time.

Jesse

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27 Victoria Lynch Thu, Apr 16, 2009 10:08.82 AM

I am so grateful to God for a faithful-relevant -Godly Pastor like John MacArthur, who will boldly address issues from the pulpit that I never would have believed could cause such controversy.
Over at Tim Challies I was amazed that a large percentage of the posts were in favor of the kind of language from the pulpit that JM is soundly and biblically taking to task.
I am also very alarmed at the lack of respect I see from some of those young men. Dr. MacArthur is a proven servant of God and he needs to be listened to-- God has given to the church seasoned and Godly men to help young men(and women) discern good from evil, what is edifying and sanctifying from what is trashifying and morally polluting.

What is happening to our young. How can people justify and defend the kind of smut from the pulpit that Dr.M is addressing? What ever is going to happen when even people with proper doctrine fail to have any sanctified common sense?
So now will we have a porn church in the midst of a pornographic society?!!!!!!
This trend brings grief-how it must also grieve the HOLY SPIRIT.

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28 Brett Rayl Thu, Apr 16, 2009 10:09.48 AM

Here is a piece of a post by Mark Driscoll from a week or so ago. (http://theresurgence.com/spring_cleaning)

"One, I am not mentioning my critics, my friend who brought this to my attention, or the content for gospel reasons. I don’t want to speak ill of my critics, I don’t want to drag my friend into something that does not directly involve him, and I don’t want to draw attention to the content because it will only cause those who have not listened to it to flock to it.

Two, I want to thank my critics for teaching me that I have multiple audiences and that in addition to the room I speak to I am often also speaking to the world and need to keep repenting, learning, and growing in this skill for the sake of the gospel. In that way, my critics are helpful, and for them I am grateful."

I really appreciate the thoughtful critique and have been very helped by it in some ways. But why link to material that Driscoll has taken down himself and has tried not to draw attention to? And why not at least post the link showing his response and repentance (maybe that will be in part 4?)? Grace and peace!

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29 Mark Boatman Thu, Apr 16, 2009 10:12.84 AM

Am I missing something? Aren't there parts of the Bible that aren't quite what we would consider G rated? Isn't there a story about some dude pulling it out and spilling his seaman on the floor? Doesn't God continually call the Israelites a whore? Why do people keep calling it worldly to talk about these things? Christians struggle with things too to. Just because Pastor Mark talks about them when other preachers will not does not spiritually disqualify him.

Dr. Mac says "They may be suitable subjects for a private counseling session, or the doctor's office, or a college biology lecture, but they are not fitting topics for a worship service where God should be glorified, Christ should be uplifted, women should be shown respect, children's innocence should be guarded, and single people's prurient curiosities should not unnecessarily be enflamed." Is there a Bible verse that says there are certain times God should be glorified, Christ should be uplifted, etc, and certain times where these things don't matter?

My beef is with people who say that the pulpit should be sacred and there should be certain things we shouldn't mention from there. The way a preacher/teacher talks at the pulpit should be the same way he talks throughout the rest of his week. There was a warning before every sermon Pastor Mark did that some of the content might not be suitable for kids 14 or under and that the parents of these children could decide to send them to childcare if they so desired. There's also a warning above this blog. How is ok here but not at Mars Hill?

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30 Hayden Norris Thu, Apr 16, 2009 10:24.28 AM

Mark,

The pulpit should be sacred. (Not the furniture but because of the message that is delivered. Speaking for God as a Pastor should cause every Pastor to tremble) The statement that you made does not match with James 3:1-12; Prv. 10:19; 10:31; 13;3, etc. or many statements and OT admonitions to be holy because of God's holiness. (Isaiah 6; etc.)

You should pick up a copy of RC Sproul's 'The Holiness of God' and I think this will help you to see what I mean.

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31 Phillip Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 10:26.65 AM

Brett:

See the comments under yesterday's post. Do a search for "Spring cleaning," and it will take you straight to your answer.

Mark Boatman: "Am I missing something?"

Yes, I'd say so.

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32 Jesse Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 10:27.51 AM

Brett,
Check out the comments from yesterday, specifically Phil Johnson's comment on the Spring Cleaning post. The gist though, is that when Mark posted that Spring Cleaning, he said what he didn't want out there was a more private lecture to a group of older, more mature people, and that he never wanted it public, and that was recently posted as part of "clearing a backlog." It is a blig leap from that statment to saying that he was talking about a specific sermon that he has preached multiple times in multiple ciites, and that has been online for months. So I don't know why you would think it is about the sermon linked here.

Jesse

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33 Robert Hayton Thu, Apr 16, 2009 10:48.11 AM

Mark brings up a good point about the sacredness of the pulpit which gets me thinking.

1) Would a sermon series on Sunday Morning through the Song of Solomon be appropriate for public worship? Why? Why not?

2) The concept of the church-house, or church-service-time being more sacred than other places and times seems wrong, traditional but wrong. Church is who we are all week long. Some treat the Sunday morning service as the high point of holiness, reverence and awe. Others don't see Scripture sanctifying that time and the role of the sermon so highly. Should we take great care in handling the word? Yes. But churches often met in believers homes in scripture, most "preaching" was done outside the church in evangelistic concepts, and teaching and sharing words of exhortation seems to have been what most characterized meetings of believers, aside from the Agape meal and Lord's Supper. With this being said...

3) ...how one views church, how one thinks about casual versus formal dress for church-meetings, how one views the role of the church (attract the lost or educate the saved to go get the lost, etc.) -- all of this will impact this discussion. This will color what one feels is appropriate or not for the pulpit. I would contend any passage of Scripture should be appropriate for public teaching and reading. Care must be made, and perhaps some occasions call for removing young children from the midst, but it shouldn't be inappropriate to deal with any passage of Scripture.

All of this is just to say this discussion intersects with other differences of opinion on methods and traditions.

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34 Asia Kelly Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:00.31 AM

Dr. MacArthur says:

"They may be suitable subjects for a private counseling session, or the doctor's office, or a college biology lecture, but they are not fitting topics for a worship service where God should be glorified, Christ should be uplifted, women should be shown respect, children's innocence should be guarded, and single people's prurient curiosities should not unnecessarily be enflamed."


In this I wholeheartedly agree. I think MD's exposition of this in the Peasant Princess is seriously made for lets say.... married couples or at worst those who are planning to marry. I do understand that messages from the pulpit should have a generality to them suitable for all audiences including those who may be struggling with sexual sin, hear this message, and may be tempted to to fall into sexual sin because of the descriptions of imagery that I believe is divinely veiled for those who have experienced it in the marital context.

As I said in the other posts, I still feel uncomfortable with the public reading of this text... it is not because of the book, but because of my previous sexual sin.

I did not see his original series on SOS, but for MD to even come to the conclusion that the allegorical context of Christ and the church is IMPORTANT from ten years ago being seemingly totally opposed to that, shows... dare I say it... GROWTH. He seriously needs a mentor in the faith because he is holding on to some very immature beliefs. I have never liked his coarse joking and I know that is residue of his Emergent background. I'm about solutions at this point.... what should Brother MD do at this point? Examining himself is in order... it is in order for every Christian. I hope you are all praying for him that he grows in his walk.



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35 don sands Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:20.92 AM

When the Church comes together, with the elder folks, and the children, and everyone else, the Pastor who expounds upon the Bible with a sermon must be sensative of his audience. Jesus Christ preached to the multitudes, and His words were for all to hear.

A genuine Pastor of the Lord surely could read through Song of Songs on Sunday morning, and expound upon it as he considers his congregation. In a Bible study you may go a bit more into the Hebrew, and the poetry. Corporate worship is different, and it should be clear, but we are living in a foogy post-modern age. So we have to deal with relativism constantly it seems. Hey that's alright, the Lord is the same yesterday, today, and forever. There's no changing with the Lord, not even a shadow of a chance. he is compassionate, full of mercy, and holy. God is just and good, and He seeks those who will worship Him in Spirit and truth.

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36 Phillip Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:27.75 AM

Robert Hayton: "All of this is just to say this discussion intersects with other differences of opinion on methods and traditions."

Of course it does. John MacArthur is no newcomer to that debate. At this very moment, I'm proofreading revisions for a new edition of Ashamed of the Gospel from Crossway. Some of MacArthur's critics who see so utterly baffled by his stance on Driscoll's irreverence would do well to re-read that book.

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37 Steven Lamm Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:33.18 AM

To those who think that Driscoll's language from the pulpit is really no big deal, I suggest you do a serious study of the Pastoral Epistles and then come back here an defend such actions biblically. I think you'll have a difficult time doing so.

Some of you have impugned the motives of John MacArthur because he dares to bring this up in a public forum. That of course is a common tactic used by those who wish to dismiss the substance of what John is saying witih regard to the proper conduct of a man who holds the office of pastor/teacher. The same argument was used against those who dared to criticise Rick Warren.

Some of you wonder why John is not frying bigger fish and going after real heresy. Well, John has done so repeatedly in his books which have an exponentially larger audience than Pulpit Magazine does. So that argument is a non-starter.

Now let's get back to the reall issue - the proper conduct and language for a preacher. Phil Johnson gave a message that addressed the issue from Scripture at the Shepherd's Conference and virtually none of his most vociferous critics were able to refute him exegetically. In fact, they didn't even attempt to do so. The reason is simple - they can't. It was simply easier to impugn his motives. Obviously with some, it was an effective tactic.

To D.L. Kane: making an appeal to authority is only as effective as the position such authorities hold on the question under review. I respect the Reformers and Puritans, but they were not infallible and you yourself probably have views which differ from theirs. If you think MacArthur is wrong on his interpretation of the SoS, then make your case hermeneutically. John MacArthur has a long track record of treating the text of Scripture with the utmost care. He deserves respect for that even if you disagree with his conclusions.

Respectfully,
Steve Lamm

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38 Hayden Norris Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:35.29 AM

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39 Todd Burus Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:37.37 AM

"The pulpit should be sacred"? Where is this at in the Bible? I don't even know if there is a Greek word for 'pulpit.' Beyond that, whose to say what 'sacred' is? Isn't that what this whole debate is about? One can't just say, "I have a definition for 'sacred'," and then declare their self the winner. I would guess that both Driscoll and MacArthur individually believe that their own interpretation is both what sacred means and what God considers sacred, and that each of them do their best to abide by that. Maybe Driscoll's interpretation is too liberal, maybe MacArthur's is too conservative, that's what we're trying to determine. But let's not muddy the waters by adding in our own extra-biblical morality. As I said earlier in this thread, we need to be careful not to project our own biases into this and declare Driscoll as belligerent because he is transgressing our personal convictions.

I think a third voice that would be pertinent to hear on this issue is Southern Baptist Theological Seminary president Al Mohler's. This idea (of inappropriate speech in the pulpit) was the topic of one of his shows late last year and I think it introduces a nice intermediate position to the mix from a person who can by no means be declared liberal or wishy-washy on his theology. Check it out here.

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40 Todd Burus Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:41.82 AM

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41 Arlen Stuart Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:53.47 AM

Todd Burus,

Would you please explain who is adding their own "extra-biblical morality" to the discussion and exactly how it is extra-biblical/personal conviction?

Thanks,

Arlen

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42 Richard Rickard Thu, Apr 16, 2009 12:02.17 PM

I encourage everyone to go read this article by Mark Driscoll on John MacArthur: http://theresurgence.com/new_calvinism_macarthur_on_bible_teaching and then come back and read this series. One person is showing maturity and grace to a person who clearly has a problem with him, the other is not. Then go and read this article: http://theresurgence.com/spring_cleaning which happens to be in regards to the sermon being dissected here. Then come back and read this series. One person recognizes clear error and repents. The other sees that repentenance, chooses to ridicule and attempt to shame the person. I thought we were suppsed to show grace, especially when someone openly repents. How would we feel if when we repented of our sins, rather than show grace Christ ridiculed us and shamed us? I have thoroughly benefitted from Pulpit and John MacArthur, however this series has severely diminished my opinion of both. I will continue to listen to John MacArthur's sermons as he does not tend to engage in personal attacks during his sermons. However I will no longer read Pulpit as long as it continues to be a place that ridicules and shames those that openly repent.

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43 Grant Russell Thu, Apr 16, 2009 12:10.07 PM

To me the issue seems to be a lot simpler than what is being made of it.

Read the following verses and ask yourself if Pastor Mark has fulfilled the standard that you, me and yes Dr MacArthur are also called to.

Clear and simple that is all we have to do.

Titus 2:6-8
Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, a dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.

1 Timothy 4:12
Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, l so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

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44 Jesse Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 12:15.89 PM

Richard,
Again I would ask why you think it is about the sermon being dissected here? He said it was about a private lecture given to older people that he didn't know was accidentilly put on line, not a sermon he preached Sunday morning many times that has been on-line for months.
I'm sorry for being redundant, but I've asked that question multiple times and nobody has answered it, and people keep asking about the Spring cleaning post. I just don't get the connection.
Even assuming that it was somehow about this sermon, where does he say he repented? Repented of what? I'm confused about that.

Jesse

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45 Jim Weikal Thu, Apr 16, 2009 12:17.57 PM

As I follow with interest, I think a point is not being addressed. Have we opened Pandora's Box? This reference to mythology I have made–is it purely intellectual? Or have I made some crude reference? Some of you may have no clue. I think the MacArthur group. Does the Mars Hill group catch on more easily? I don't know.

My point is this: What can we expect now that the "box" (or jar) is now opened? Have we Christians once again shot ourselves in the foot? I fear we have.

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46 Jerry Wragg Thu, Apr 16, 2009 01:09.12 PM

Jim -
Huh?

To those who continue to side-step the real issues -

Steve Lamm's earlier challenge still stands: Bring your own textual arguments to the table and demonstrate how they offer a clearer interpretation of Solomon's Song. If you keep relying on ad hominem, worn out character-smearing, you've nothing to say in defense of either your views or Driscoll's.

As to Driscoll's "repentance" of past pulpit crimes, Scripture defines the fruit of true penitence, not people or movements or churches or communities. Read Psalm 51, Luke 19:8-10, and 2 Cor 7:11 for just a few of dynamic outworkings of a broken heart over sin. None of us can know the truest motives of another man's heart, but true repentance produces clearly visible fruit in one's character. Driscoll has been challenged, spoken to personally, written to, pleaded with, lovingly yet firmly confronted, rebuked, strongly encouraged, and warned for several years now to either biblically defend his constant violation of Eph 5:3-4, et. al., or re-examine the inflexible qualifications of a pastor in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1. Whatever overtures of "change" he has openly made, he continues to boldy disregard some of the clearest admonitions and critiques of his ministry conduct. It is simply not legitimate to hide behind other Christian leaders who've privately admitted their disappointment with his antics, yet who've either publically endorsed him or backhandedly offered approval by making liitle to no public reprimand. Such "support" does not clear any man from accountability when the stakes are so public.

Furthermore, do Driscoll's defenders actually believe that if he was truly "sorry" for his conduct and began to "change his ways" in the pulpit we should view him as biblically qualified to lead in a local church? Frankly, this is mystifying! Apparently, we're all supposed to look with favor upon leaders regardless of how they think, live, and talk. Or worse, if a leader can articulate right theology and seems to live relatively scandal-free (at least in the "major" sins of public embarrassment), his speech and where his mind regularly grazes says absolutely nothing about what's in his heart. Well, that's a new twist on the process of sanctification! In my 26 years of striving to be like Christ I've never once seen a disconnect between what my mind dwells on and the sins that beset my life. It's simply a lie to say that what is in your mind and mouth reveals nothing about the inner life. Jesus made that patently clear (Matt 12:34)! So, go ahead and believe that men can entertainingly speak with cavalier frequency about lurid and overtly sensual content without eroding biblical convictions. But be warned! If you make provision for the flesh, your sanctification will suffer!

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47 Phillip Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 02:22.84 PM

Jerry:

Exactly.
Erik Raymond's blog adds some salient points.

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48 Caleb Kolstad Thu, Apr 16, 2009 02:44.93 PM

I appreciate your posts here Pastor MacArthur. Thank you very much.

My personal opinion is that good Christian blogs (esp. one's that are popular and well read) should sometimes just shut down the "comments section" in effort to help redeem people's time. If more believers (and pastors) would just spend more time reading, studying, and applying the Word of God churches would be much, much stronger. It is evident to me in reading the comment sections on various blogs that many people spend way too much time blogging and not nearly enough time in the Scriptures (doing faithful exegesis, working on personal application, etc). T4G

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49 Lance Quinn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 03:25.04 PM

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50 Lance Quinn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 03:28.89 PM

Jesse, Was there a problem with my post?

LQ

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51 Lance Quinn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 03:34.98 PM

Pulpit Staff,

Could you post my comments?

Thanks,

Lance Quinn

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52 don sands Thu, Apr 16, 2009 03:39.43 PM

"If more believers (and pastors) would just spend more time reading, studying, and applying the Word of God churches would be much, much stronger."

Can't argue with that. Though I do like to blog. My wife says i do blog too much. I watch too much TV as well. I sleep too much. And i definitely don't pray enough, that's the biggie, if you ask me.
Nevertheless, I love Christ, and I pray each morning for my Father to give me His Holy Spirit, so that I will be able to live for Christ this day.
I do pray, I do read my Bible, and i share my faith and testimony with others when I can, and especially when they ask me about my hope.

I have really appreciated this series by Pulpit Mag. Exposing the leaven that is in the Church is not nice and easy, it gets ugly, like we have seen. God shows us our own hearts through these blogs, and when we see that we are bitter, or self-centered, self-righteous, or having self-pity and blaming others. Whatever dirt the Lord brings up from our desperately wicked hearts, we need to ask Christ to cleanse us, and rew, and wash our minds by His Word and Spirit.
We then grow in His grace and love, and we please Jesus our Savior and Lord.

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53 Mark Boatman Thu, Apr 16, 2009 04:49.9 PM

TO Jerry Wragg:

People aren't side stepping the real issues. They know and believe the same verses that you do. What you fail to see is that the words in those verses are defined differently for different people. For example "Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place..." Yes that is inspired by God and profitable. Here's the thing, how you define crude joking is not the same way that everyone in the world would define crude joking. You fail to see that Pastor Mark is speaking a totally different language to a totally different culture of people. And obviously the people in his congregation don't take it as crude (I say obviously because even Dr. MacArthur includes in parenthesis how and when the congregation laughed at Pastor Mark's jokes). And yes I know that his sermons are posted online for all to see, but the great thing about that is: if you don't want to watch, don't watch. But there are thousands of people who love his teaching and have learned a lot about Jesus because of it.

I hope you (and others) can understand that people aren't saying that your verses are illegitimate, they are simply saying that there are other legitimate definitions of words like "crude" or "course" or "crass" (sorry that they're all 'c' words... it's all I could think of). And don't get me wrong, not all words have more than one definition (i.e. fornicate = sex outside of heterosexual marriage). But words like crude for example, don't necessarily have a black and white list of acts that ARE crude and acts that AREN'T crude to define them. Also, there are so many people commenting on this site using verses like this and just bashing the heck out of Driscoll. The verse also includes the word Gracious.... some comment-ers on this thread aren't being very gracious towards Pastor Mark. Does that spiritually disqualify them?

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54 Russell Carroll Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:01.97 PM

It's probably unhelpful to call out another pastor publicly and a big waste of time. It more likely sows discord than corrects an error.

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55 Christopher Carney Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:05.53 PM

Well, after three days of reading each of the installments and all of the various links provided by people in the comments sections on this matter, I (a mere nobody) have reached my own conclusion; I wonder if anyone else has arrived at the same? I should also add the fact that prior to the Shepherd's Conference this year, and/or hearing Phil's excellent talk on the subject, I was pretty much in the dark on most of this atrociousness (lewdness, crass words, sexual innuendo, etc.) that is out there, flying under the banner of Christianity--all of it being done in the name of "relevance," so-called. I had only heard references here and there to Mr. Driscoll being nicknamed "the cussing pastor" and his affiliations with emergent, of which he claims to have disassociated himself. Well, perhaps he cannot be called "emergent" definitively, but the spirit of emergent--postmodern rebellion and/or irreverence--seems to be alive and well in all of Mr. Driscoll's "ministry" venues. I think the number of links people have provided in the last few days have made a few things clear: 1. profanity, vulgarity, and generally irreverent humor characterize MD's ministry "style" (of course, "style" being one of the chief concerns among the young and trendy gen xer's and beyond--well above holiness, truth, reverence towards God and the things of God, etc.) through several examples, as the SoS message was not an isolated incident; BTW: I am 40 myself, so I know the generation from which he "emerges"; I also teach college students, so I know the generation he targets; 2. MD seems to really enjoy the image he is creating for himself, especially within the media, along with the controversy--he has a prominent pulpit, a following, a trademark "approach," and books being churned out of the mill ("when it's going this good, why change anything?" he seems to be saying to himself); 3. MD seems to care little about genuine repentance or really listening to those much wiser and grounded in Scripture; the link that someone posted, which was supposed to deliver this, was a dodgy and evasive example of giving lip service merely to appease (in my opinion). However, if the comment on that link was the best, most genuine statement of repentance he could provide for all of these offensive, inaccurate mis-representations of Christianity (which may very well be the case), then I'd venture to say it is not a matter of intentional evasion/rebellion (which also might very well be the case), or a matter of merely being incapable of honestly trying to repent, as much as it is an utter inability to even understand what it means to have a holy fear of God or why such a holy fear is so vitally important--not only for himself, but for those he leads. If the latter is true, what on earth is he doing in a pulpit? Just a question.

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56 D. L. Kane Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:20.56 PM

I have a great idea. How about we all agree to read the following sermons and then decide which method of interpretation helps us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Any takers? Or, have you all already read them and decided that it is much more porfitable to interpet SoS literally?

Spurgeon Index link from Phil Johnson's Website:

Ref Title Year Page
So 1:2 Better Than Wine 2459 1896 157
So 1:4 Memory of Christ's Love, The 2294 1893 61
So 1:4 Refreshing Canticle, A 2794 1902 409
So 1:4 Rejoicing and Remembering 2461 1896 181
So 1:6 Self-Humbling and Self-Searching 990 1871 265
So 1:6 Unkept Vineyard; or, Personal Work Neglected 1936 1886 693
So 1:7 Church's Love to Her Loving Lord, The 636 1865 349
So 1:7 Love to Jesus 338 1860 413
So 1:7, 8 Good Shepherdess, The 1115 1873 313
So 1:12 Fragrant Graces 3480 1915 476
So 1:13 Bundle of Myrrh, A 558 1864 133
So 2:1 Best of the Best, The 2472 1896 313
So 2:1 Rose and the Lily, The 784 1867 673
So 2:2 Lily Among Thorns, The 1525 1880 133
So 2:3 Apple Tree in the Wood, The 1120 1873 373
So 2:3 Under the Apple Tree 3249 1911 217
So 2:7 Roes and the Hinds, The 1463 1879 145
So 2:10-13 Sermon for Spring, A 436 1862 109
So 2:13 Tender Grapes, The 2480 1896 409
So 2:16 Interest of Christ and His People in Each Other, The 374 1861 209
So 2:16 Loved and Loving 1634 1881 698
So 2:16 My Beloved Is Mine 2442 1895 577
So 2:16 Song Among the Lilies, A 1190 1874 481
So 2:16, 17 Over the Mountains 3307 1912 289
So 2:16, 17 Song of My Beloved, A 3185 1910 85
So 2:17 Believer's Glad Prospects, The 3323 1912 481
So 2:17 Darkness Before the Dawn 2477 1896 373
So 3:1-4 Disconsolate Lover, The 3485 1915 529
So 3:4 Love's Vigilance Rewarded 2485 1896 469
So 3:4, 5 Real Presence, the Great Want of the Church, The 1035 1872 85
So 3:6-11 Royal Pair in Their Glorious Chariot, The 482 1862 661
So 3:10 Paved with Love 1134 1873 541
So 4:10, 11 Christ's Estimate of His People 282 1859 457
So 4:12 Lord's Own View of His Church and People, The 1957 1887 205
So 4:12, 15 Secret and Yet No Secret, A 431 1862 49
So 4:16 Grace for Communion 1941 1887 37
So 4:16 "My Garden"—"His Garden" 2475 1896 349
So 5:1 King Feasting in His Garden, The 919 1870 133
So 5:1 Love Joying in Love 1943 1887 49
So 5:2 Asleep and Yet Awake—a Riddle 1561 1880 553
So 5:2 Warning and Encouragement 3013 1906 541
So 5:2-8 Nearer and Dearer 793 1868 61
So 5:6 Soul's Desertion, The 3552 1917 85
So 5:8 Heavenly Love-Sickness! 539 1863 625
So 5:9 Incomparable Bridegroom and His Bride, The 2469 1896 277
So 5:10 Christ's Perfection and Precedence 2478 1896 385
So 5:13 Spices, Flowers, Lilies and Myrrh 2479 1896 397
So 5:16 Altogether Lovely 1001 1871 397
So 5:16 Best Beloved, The 1446 1878 661
So 6:4 Church as She Should Be, The 984 1871 193
So 6:5 Overcoming Christ 2486 1896 481
So 6:12 Chariots of Amminadib, The 1155 1874 61
So 6:13 Inward Conflicts 593 1864 561
So 6:13 "Return, Return, O Shulamite; Return, Return!" 1794 1884 433
So 7:11-13 Call for Revival, A 1066 1872 457
So 7:11-13 Good Works in Good Company 605 1864 705
So 8:5 Leaning on Our Beloved 877 1869 349
So 8:6 Love and Jealousy 3516 1916 277
So 8:6, 7 Shulamite's Choice Prayer, The 364 1861 129
So 8:7 Unpurchasable Love 2466 1896 241
So 8:12 Christ's Love for His Vineyard 2785 1902 301
So 8:13 Bridegroom's Parting Word, The 1716 1883 217
So 8:14 Come, My Beloved! 2360 1894 217

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57 Jesse Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:21.95 PM

Mark,

How do you define "crude"? What do you think Eph 4:29 prohibits?

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58 Gabriel Powell Thu, Apr 16, 2009 05:44.2 PM

D.L.,

It may be extremely edifying to use an allegorical interpretation, but that doesn't mean that it is the right interpretation. The most edifying and God-glorifying interpretation is the right interpretation--that is, the one God intended. And since the Old Testament saints did not know about Christ or the church (twas a mystery!), one is hard pressed to say that the text meant that to the Israelite in the days of Solomon.

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59 Randall Kirkland Thu, Apr 16, 2009 06:07.22 PM

I've been traveling the past few days and have tried to keep up with this discussion with varying degrees of success. My general views are as follows:

1. To those who incessantly ask "why is Dr. MacArthur doing this", the answer is because very few (except Johnson, Wheaton and precious few others) have risen to address this awful problem, and "why in a public venue?"...because Driscoll's language is out in the public and is a disgrace to the cause of Christ in many public instances.

2. It's sad that this issue even has to be addressed but I am thankful that Dr. MacArthur cares so deeply for the purity of the Church that he will deal with this issue head-on.

3. I am troubled by the fact that men of major influence keep asking Driscoll to be part of their conferences while he has yet to manifest repentance as publicly as his offenses. The sentiment seems to be" Mark is very gifted and we need to nudge him to do proper work rather than publicly castigate him", to which I would respond...utter pragmatism at work here. Deal with the man's language problem and leave it to God to fill the pulpit with men who honor His word in their preaching ministry with impeccable speech, above reproach.



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60 William du Plooy Thu, Apr 16, 2009 06:34.9 PM

Some final thoughts for this post:

Would YOU have the willingness and desire to portray your INTIMATE loving moments before the Congregation of the Church at ANY time of the week?
(Let alone that: Would you have your sons talk about their HOMOSEXUAL acts in front of the Congregation?)

On the sanctity of the time when the Oracles of God expound His Verbim Dei:
Remind yourself next time when you speak the Words of the Living Almighty that YOu are in His VERY Presence facing Him, when you speak FOR HIM. Like Isaiah it should humble you and put the Fear of Israel before you, that you would bow your head onto the ground in shame (As I must) when in His Presence which is Perfectly Holy, Just and Righteouss and which Consumes any trace of Sin as a Consuming Fire.

When you can face up to the fact that there is a time and a season for every word, that marital relations and sexual counsel is PRIVATE for a reason - Because it is a sanctified holy GIFT from the Almighty Fear of Israel; not because we are shy or prudish about it; but because of Who it is that gave it to us. I believe then you may begin to understand the weight of the issues at hand.

There is a tie and a place for everything, just as there was for the service of the Levitical Priesthood - Step out of the ordained times of worship and the LORD would take your life... And He did on several occasions, because the worship was defiled by impure motives, done at the persons own wims and time, because the persons disregarded what He requires of His service.

Remember the LORD is the King and we are mere earthen vessels. He does not regard the person of man.

Randall makes some excellent points.

Humbled by grace, strengthened by Fear,
W

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61 Russell Carroll Thu, Apr 16, 2009 07:18.51 PM

I'll tell you one thing in all sincerity, forgetting about the current brain debate...I am truly grateful to be reminded of the Song of Solomon, an easy to overlook book. Probably the greatest reminder that the Lord hasn't forgotten me down here is my beautiful bride that He gave me. You want to find the "Jesus" in SOS??? I think it's pretty simple...He is ALL good and is the Giver of amazing gifts!

Praise God!

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62 Scott McIntosh Thu, Apr 16, 2009 07:20.56 PM

Randall,

Could you tell me who Wheaton is and direct me to where they addressed the issue at hand. Thanks

Scott

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63 D. L. Kane Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:07.72 PM

There is a great difference between an “Allegoric Exposition of Scripture”, and an “Exposition of Allegoric Scripture”: The first is that which many men fail in, that is, when they allegorize plain Scriptures and Histories, seeking to draw out some secret meaning, other than appear in the words; and so will fasten many senses upon one Scripture. This is indeed unsafe, and is justly reprovable.

For anyone who wants to gain a better understanding of the Hermeneutics behind correct interpretation of SoS, I would highly recommend: "Clavis Cantici: or, a KEY of the SONG, Useful for opening up thereof" by James Durham. James Durham (1622-1658) was a minister at Glasgow's "Inner Kirk" and was renowned as a preacher and writer during his short life. His Commentary on the Song of Solomon is his best known work.

John Owen said this about Durham’s Commentary: “But this, I suppose, I may say without offence, that it will be hard for any to discover, either defect in judgment, or untruth in affection, or the omission or neglect of any rule, means, or advantages that might, or ought to be used in enquiry after the mind of God, in this work, or a want of perspicuity, and plainness in the discovery, or expression of his conceptions upon it. I am persuaded every reader, whose mind is exercised about, and conversant in these things, whose heart hath an experience of their power and reality, will find that light and strength added to what he hath attained, and that assistance and direction towards what he is yet reaching out after, as that he will not forbear to give that testimony to the author in this matter, as is due to a faithful and skilful labourer, in this excellent part of the harvest of the Lord; and to the judgment of such alone I do appeal: and this consideration refers me to these thoughts which I before expressed, viz. the uselessness of any recommendation of this treatise unto those who are willing conscientiously to enquire into the sacred truths treasured up in this excellent portion of scripture, and to improve them unto their own advantage in faith and obedience.”

The whole of what I can contribute unto the furtherance of the usefulness of this treatise, is to recommend it in my poor supplications, unto the grace of him, who supplied this seed to the sower, that he would bless it in the hearts and minds of them that read it, with an increase unto holiness and eternal life:

So prays, thy friend and servant in the work of the gospel,
John Owen


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64 A Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:45.04 PM

I think this post sums up nicely a better approach to this whole situation: http://stevenjcamp.blogspot.com/2009/04/when-confronting-others-what-is-your.html

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65 Arturo Dan Thu, Apr 16, 2009 08:56.61 PM

My husband and I benefited greatly from listening to MD's first SoS series many years ago. No one had ever talked about sex as God designed it so honestly before, and we struggled as a couple on the issue. God helped us greatly in our marriage through those messages.

I willingly admit MD has made huge mistakes this go around and have appreciated aspects of this series of articles. But all the criticism would be easier to accept if MacArthur also acknowledged his failure to lead on a subject that plagues SO MANY Christians. The reason MD's a booklet on porn is so widely accepted is because it affects so many and no one else with any age or maturity in the ministry was publicly dealing with it.

If Dr. MacArthur could tweak his message to include humility on the fact that he hasn't been a leader in equipping people to deal with this issue, this would stop being so polarizing and start being a discussion that is actually helpful.

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66 Gabriel Powell Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:26.65 PM

D.L.,

I see. Well, I do have one question. At what point in time did Song of Solomon become Allogoric? When it was written (and thus completely non-comprehendable for hundreds of years by anyone even Solomon), or in the 1st century (and thus it means something competely different to us than it did to the Israelite)?

This allegorical interpretation (calling it Allegoric Scripture is an interpretive decision since there is no explicit biblical assignment as such) makes sense under an amillenial framework, but it doesn't fit a consistent literary and historical-grammatical hermeneutical interpretation.

I sense that is where our differences lie, and if so, it is best to leave it at that.

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67 Phillip Johnson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:32.47 PM

[Mrs.?] Arturo Dan: "If Dr. MacArthur could tweak his message to include humility on the fact that he hasn't been a leader in equipping people to deal with this issue, this would stop being so polarizing and start being a discussion that is actually helpful."

"Actually helpful," huh?

Hmmm.

Well, thanks for sharing your expertise.

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68 Lance Quinn Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:33.54 PM

To Arturo Dan:

The very fact that Dr. MacArthur is writing these articles makes it clear that he is a strong leader in equipping young pastors in dealing with how to appropriately and wisely preach the Song of Solomon. His entire approach is motivated by helping young men in ministry to see that preaching is a sober and serious responsibility, both in the way you exegete Scripture, and in the way you communicate it to your people.

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69 Brian Milam Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:42.51 PM

Arturo,

The real issue is Mark Driscoll and the decisions he has made about his preaching. Blaming Pastor MacArthur because people struggle with this type of sin is ludricrous! Man is drawn away by his own lust and that is a self-evident biblical truth. Weak teaching or teaching that doesn't focus on growing in Christ is the real thief of attaining maturity as a believer. Strong doctrine and a strong understanding of the Scriptures makes for a strong believer.

The reason Mark needs to be challenged is exactly the problem you are raising. This type of talk will only exacerbate those who already struggle with this issue. Some may struggle after listening to Mark talk because of the images put into their mind. This is feeding the problem and not rescuing sinners from the flame. Your carrying them to the fire to burn. Why would anyone especially a Pastor want to cause his congregation to think and dwell on these things?

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70 Jerry Wragg Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:56.14 PM

Mark -
Sorry, but the original language of Eph 5:3-4 is not as broad as you suggest. In fact, after developing a semantic range for those terms, particularly "aiskrotes" ("obscenity" or "Impurity"), there simply is no way to define them so loosely. Translators didn't have any trouble finding an English equivalent for that which universally represents impurity.

And let's be clear here, Driscoll's sexually explicit content is not simply him using graphic terms to interpret Song of Solomon. He spends most of his sensual material on lewd humor for the sake of shock and cheap entertainment. We're supposed to believe that's not problematic for the minds and hearts of an already sexually enslaved subculture? He obviously has never dealt with teenagers of his own, and I can't even imagine how he keeps his own mind and heart free from lustful and indulgent imaginations. Know this for sure, purity and holiness are not realities we have the right to redefine. A pure mind is demanded of us as believers, and just because you've become comfortable with obscene content doesn't make it any less obscene. Could it be, my friend, that your own sanctification has suffered "slippage" and therefore you're not able to discern any longer what the biblical standard of purity is? Surely you and I understand that the erosion of biblical convictions most often occurs subtely over time, almost imperceptibly. When you instruct your children, if you have them, Don't you tell them to always be on the alert so as not to allow anything in their life that might threaten a sensitive and clear conscience. The same is true for all believers. In fact, if you stray from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith, the result is always self-deception, foolish speculation, and pride (1 Tim 1:6).

Please consider these things...

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71 Gabriel Powell Thu, Apr 16, 2009 09:59.28 PM

> he hasn't been a leader in equipping people to deal with this issue

I would take issue with this statement. First of all I'm not clear on what you mean by "this issue", whether it is sexual sin or dysfunctional intimacy in marriage. Either case, the fact remains that (to state the obvious) MacArthur has preached expositionally for over 40 years, written dozens of books, many many articles, all of which have resulted in tons of study guides and commentaries.

I say that to say this, it is a false premise to say that a pastor can only equip people to deal with any issue by focusing heavily on that issue. John's teaching has equipped tens of thousands of people to properly understand all of Scripture and have discernment in all areas of life. He doesn't have to preach a sermon on how to stay away from drugs for those of us in the church to learn how to do so. Through a pastor's faithful teaching (content and methodology) and our own faithful study of and obedience to Scripture, we as believers have the ability to learn to deal with issues. Sometimes we need specific guidance, but we have the ability.

It's like seminary. There is no way a seminary education can prepare you for everything you will come across in ministry. But a good seminary education will give you the tools to handle every situation. John has done a lot of both. Over 40 years he has preached on innumerable subjects to give understanding and help people think biblically, but at the same time he has also taught people (through the subject of sermons and mostly his style of preaching) how to read and study Scripture on their own. Every pastor does this. And the utter lack of many Christians to have discernment and biblical understanding demonstrates how so many pastors fail to do this.

> a subject that plagues SO MANY Christians

Do you have the knowledge and experience to back this up? Can you verify that your environment is replicated everywhere? If you do, that's fine... I'm just asking. I mean... compared to all the Christians you know, is the ratio really that high?

No one will stand on judgment day saying, "My pastor didn't preach on this subject!" We are privilaged to live in an era where each of us has a copy of the Scripture in our hands and unfathomable tools to help us understand it. With that privilage comes great responsibility. And with that responsibility will come accountability.

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72 Warren Pearson Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:00.79 PM

Spurgeon on the Christian standing guard against sin: Job 40:3,4 Indwelling Sin #83 1856 "And moreover, Christian, remember how many backers thy evil nature has. As for thy gracious life, it finds few friends beneath the sky; but thine original sin hath allies in every quarter. It looks down to hell, and it finds them there, demons ready to let slip the dogs of hell upon thy soul. It looks out into the world, and sees "the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eye, and the pride of life." It looks around, and it seeth all kinds of men, seeking, if it be possible, to lead the Christian from his steadfastness. It looks into the Church, and it finds all manner of false doctrine ready to inflame lust, and guide the soul from the sincerity of its faith. It looks to the body, and it finds head, and hand, and foot, and all other members ready to be subservient to sin. I could overcome my evil heart if it had not such a mighty host of allies, but it makes my position doubly dangerous, to have foes without the gates, in league and amity with a foe more vile within." (emphasis mine).

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73 Christopher Carney Thu, Apr 16, 2009 11:48.76 PM

Asia:

You Wrote: "I'm about solutions at this point.... what should Brother MD do at this point?"
Two words: STEP DOWN.

This is an obvious next step to those of us who see MD's trademark style as a gross, carnal misrepresentation of the Lord Jesus Christ, His glorious gospel, and the absolute holiness of God-breathed Scripture to a watching world (especially because he proudly parades it to the media). I'm sure that some will consider this a harsh suggestion, and hardly a solution; however, we should consider that such opposition to this simple and logical solution--one that MD himself would be the first to suggest if he were truly repentant--comes from a misunderstanding about the very role of a pastor. It suggests that filling the pulpit is somehow A RIGHT guaranteed to anyone who simply wants to be there for as long as they wish to be there (man-centered), like any other career or spot in the limelight. Rather, it is a PRIVILEGE ordained by God--the greatest privilege a man can have in life, and one that comes with serious responsibilities because it promises a stricter judgement. Not only do MD's supporters believe he is entitled to "his" pulpit and/or his trendy, edgy, and generally crass ministry enterprise, regardless of how offensive or un-Biblical, but it appears that he himself clearly appears to think the same thing. If he did not hold to such entitlement, then his dodgy, evasive statement of repentance at Resurgence would have indicated--invited rather--the very possibility of stepping down from the pulpit if his ministry style were to ever bring disgrace to the Gospel. Well, disgrace has indeed occurred, but it is doubtful that it would cross Mr. Driscoll's mind to do anything but continue doing his thing, no matter how much lower his ministry venues slide into the mire. In short, MD is concerned with defending MD, maintaining the MD "style" of "preaching," and throwing Godly wisdom from strong spiritual elders to the wind in exchange for MD's cultural interpretations. As for being faithful to God's Word or maintaining a stance of fear and trembling of the Lord? Well, just how "relevant" would that be? Or cool?

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74 Timothy Wilson Fri, Apr 17, 2009 01:06.76 AM

Christopher Carney,

Is grace a part of your theology. Good grief. He is actually preaching the Gospel, not just some flimsy evangelical lite nonsense, but actually preaching a Calvinistic grace by faith alone Christ our only salvation Gospel and converting people in their hundreds. He is training Reformed Bible teachers to fill churches with sound doctrine across the world. I would prefer to get rid of 95% of pastors before him.

Peter rejected Jesus and then Gentiles, which is about as sinful as it gets, and he was still allowed to preach. Whatever you think he should not step down.

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75 Todd Burus Fri, Apr 17, 2009 01:22.7 AM

Arlen,
Sorry to be so long in getting back to you. The 'extra-biblical morality' I was referring to was the same reading in of ones personal convictions to impugn the motives of Mark Driscoll. It feels to me like many people here have named themselves final arbiter of what is allowed and what is not and are not giving credence to Driscoll's own personal convictions on the matter. Lest we forget, he is the one who felt called to preach and pastor the flock in Seattle, not us (probably, I do not know where each of us is at), so we should allow him some charity in knowing what is and is not appropriate for his people.

Again, I think it comes down to more of a pastoring issue than anything else. Some have stated that these things would be better said in private pastoral counseling, which apparently means they are okay to say, its simply a matter of where. But then that seems to mean, at least to me, that it is context that dominates the rebukes, not content, and that seems a little hypocritical to me. If it is okay for him to say this at any time, how can we tacitly rule out him saying it in the pulpit except by our own personal decrees of propriety. The point being, if it's okay for him to say in general, then maybe we should allow some room for his convictions to lead him to saying it in the pulpit, if it be necessary for his flock; and at which point, who are we to determine what his flock needs and does not need in this regard?

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76 Todd Burus Fri, Apr 17, 2009 01:29.32 AM

For those of you who are so concerned about Driscoll "exacerbating' those who are struggling with sexual sin, let me ask you this: I have a friend who used to steal money/things from people frequently and now, even though he has repented and been forgiven of this sin, he still struggles with the anxiety of being around money where he could possibly take some. Therefore, is my church guilty of leading him astray by passing an offering plate in front of his face on Sunday morning or by setting out an open canister for dropping your money in during the Wednesday night Fellowship dinners? I mean, doing this exacerbates his sinful struggle with thievery, which is no more or less important than exacerbating someone's struggle with sexual impurity, right?

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77 Randall Kirkland Fri, Apr 17, 2009 02:42.68 AM

Scott,

Sorry to be slow in responding to your question. Here is the link to David Wheaton's article...

http://thechristianworldview.com/tcwblog/archives/2150

Randy

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78 Scott McIntosh Fri, Apr 17, 2009 06:11.03 AM

"Do you have the knowledge and experience to back this up? Can you verify that your environment is replicated everywhere? If you do, that's fine... I'm just asking. I mean... compared to all the Christians you know, is the ratio really that high?"- Gabriel

Hey Gabriel, Good to hear from you, brother. Hope all is well,

I've always enjoyed our exchanges. You tone and thoughtful answers have always been helpful. I believe the answer you gave quoted above was directed at Auturo. All I will say is that I live in a suburb of a medium size mid west town. You asked, "is the ratio really that high". Well, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. So I can believe Auturo has lived and seen this plague everywhere. I've personally watched Satan use it to ripe a family apart Take care.

Grace and peace to you,

Scott

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79 Christopher Carney Fri, Apr 17, 2009 01:44.87 PM

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80 Dee M Sat, Apr 18, 2009 10:16.92 AM

I do not have allegiances, be it to Pastor Macarthur or Driscoll. While I don't condone irreverence or unjustified interpretations, I salute people like Mark Driscoll for talking openly about matters of sexuality, since God, not Hollywood, created sexual relations. I was brought up in an ultra conservative, solid bible preaching where issues regarding sex were considered 'taboo'. For most of the commenters here, this wouldn't be a problem, since few if any of you had to grow up in a sex-saturated society. If the world is constantly bombarding us with wrong ideas about sex then I need the church body to be there to give me the Godly ideas- where else am I going to get this from? It is therefore not only foolish and bizarre that the church leadership withdraws from this task but frankly dangerous. Do you think that my church's prudishness resulted in a generation of pure young people? far from it, far from it.

The funny thing is, if Song of Solomon was written today and available to buy in christian bookshops, no doubt there would be a long line of 'christians' decrying it and trying to get it banned for its 'inappropriate' content. What does that show? The church's attitude to discussing sexual relationships has to change and fast, to make it in line with God's.

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81 don sands Sat, Apr 18, 2009 03:29.03 PM

" I salute people like Mark Driscoll for talking openly about matters of sexuality,"

He goes outside of biblical bounds. He is instructing wives how they should have sex. Pastor's telling people how to have sex?

Sure there have been teachers who have been to prudent, but Mark steps way beyond what the Lord calls for.

have you listened to his sermon? or have you read what he said? And he does this in front of everyone in the Sunday morning corporate worship. It's ridiculous.

I remember when Jimmy Swaggert used to preach about fornication, and he was too explicit I thought. That was when I was a babe in Christ, and i knew something was wrong. And a couple months later we all found out what was wrong.

Paul says, "Flee fornication." There's the proper biblical teachings when it comes to sexual interaction, and Mark isn't within those biblical boundaries, sad to say.
I pray for my brother in Christ that all this would be cleaned up.

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82 Asia Kelly Sat, Apr 18, 2009 04:53.75 PM

Dee M me and you are HERE.

I know I am not the most mature Christian. I know God is daily growing me in the things of God... God will grow me because he finishes what he starts, but the Spirit of which this is being done is totally out of line and it bothers me SAINTS.

My problem with the Church is this in a nutshell.

I have stated in my previous postings about this subject, no one in my 11 YEARS OF CHRISTIANITY, 11 years of sitting under a preacher's pulpit, has ever taught me the biblical standard concerning sexuality... NO ONE. I came out of the world and was deeply involved in sexual sins. Do you know how many Christians are suffering right now because they are daily bombarded with worldly depictions of sex, pornography, etc. that remind them of the past, HOWEVER the Church is afraid to talk about it???

This in itself is SIN!

If you didn't like DM's delivery, many a preacher can be accused of faulty delivery because they are faulty vessels, YET the TRUTH of what they are saying cannot be denied.

That was an EXCELLENT point by someone concerning the fact that the OT saints did not have the revelation of Christ and the Church during their time, although the bible does say that Abraham and others looked forward to the coming of Christ.

I agree with a sermon like this not being for general audiences and yeah he could stop with the joking... MY QUESTION IS does anyone have an issue DOCTRINALLY with what MD has said? We seem to be concentrating on HOW HE SAID IT other than WHAT WAS SAID. I have heard the arguments about MD making a homoerotic reference to Jesus and I say OK. Good point, but you all seem to dwell on that and NOT THE SOUNDNESS OF THE DOCTRINE HE IS TEACHING and whether what he is teaching is actually false.

Regardless of what has been said here, I know brother Mark has blessed me, and I now know a little more about why it is important to hold on for the KING God has intended for me, and reminds me that Christ's love is sweet and beautiful! When and if I am to marry in the future,I know I have been blessed. Good day to you all. All this going back and forth about this is nonsense to me.

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83 Christopher Carney Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:22.76 AM

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84 Dee M Sun, Apr 19, 2009 01:57.4 AM

DS

I have heard some of Mark Driscoll's sermons and have found them helpful. I agree with what you say about delivery. Like I said, I do not condone areas where he is irreverent like in the example given in the above post or where there are unjustified interpretations, but he is one of few people who have dared to address the song of solomon in relation to its primary meaning. I'm not here to fly the Mark Driscoll flag. I'm here to fly the 'leaders should preach about the Song of Solomon because it is no less valid than any other book in the bible, since God wrote it flag'. I think some of the shock with Mark Driscoll is that for the first time someone has dared to do an exposition of this book and the book itself is a very vivid account of the physical relationship between man and woman. God, not Mark Driscoll said:

"Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. "

Song of solomon 7:1-2

Because of the warped attitiude I have, due to my church's influence, I almost feel that it is wrong to even quote such verses, when this is God's holy word! The shock factor comes a lot from the text itself, if I can say that. Driscoll's delivery aside, I think a significant amount of the furor has to do with people claiming 'greater standards of propriety' than God himself.

AK,

We are here indeed, thanks for your encouragement. It is a crying shame that we feel ashamed to talk about sex when God himself talks about it quite openly. I agree that the delivery is not appropriate at times, but like yourself I appreciate guidance coming from the church about sex.

CC,

From your mocking tone and arguments, it is evident that you are only here to propagate the 'us' and 'them' tribal war. I have a feeling that you would be one of the first people to call for the banning of the book of Solomon, had it been written today.

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85 don sands Sun, Apr 19, 2009 05:52.76 AM

"..the book itself is a very vivid account of the physical relationship between man and woman."

This is true. But this Holy Book is so much more. The Word says "be not many teachers" for a good reason. Peter said that there were many false teachers in the church twisting the Scriptures, and especially the Apostle Paul's teachings.

"The Song is written in verse, as love poetry. ...the girl dreams about her wedding and the lovemaking that will follow. There is everything that we might expect here: erotic reveries, nightmares, fears of losing her lover, and romantic experiences that trasform him into a prince. In her dreams, the girl's wedding becomes a plendid, royal occasion, and the lover is identified with Solomon himself.
...The overwhelming impression that the book leaves with the reader is that love is beautiful, and can provide deep satisfaction and contentment.'" (The Geneva Study Bible)

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86 Dee M Sun, Apr 19, 2009 06:39.97 AM

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87 Dee M Sun, Apr 19, 2009 06:47.01 AM

"But this Holy Book is so much more.." Mr Sands, I know it is, I know the allegorical side, in fact the allegorical side is all any preacher ever addresses. If God didn't want sex to ever be talked about and considered it a taboo subject, like we do, then why would he put a book that explicitly details sexual relations?

Secondly, As long as MD is the only leader who is willing to discuss SoS openly, we will keep listening to him. If the church leadership is seriously concerned about this and the effect it is having on the church body then we urge you to take the floor and do an exposition that is honouring to God's word. I know there are many preachers who comment on here and I challenge them to preach on the primary aspect of this book and see what a minefield it is to do so, without offending people's sensitivities.

And thank you for the Geneva Study bible excerpt.

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88 don sands Sun, Apr 19, 2009 01:02.81 PM

"MD is the only leader who is willing to discuss SoS openly,"

That's not true. And I wish Mark was simply openly expositing these Bible verses, but he's not.

"Let my beloved come to his garden
And eat its pleasant fruits.

I have come to my garden, my sister, my spouse;
I have gathered my myrrh with my spice;
I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey;
I have drunk my wine with my milk.

Eat, O friends!
Drink, yes, drink deeply,
O beloved ones!" SoS 4:16b-5:1

"The girl unlocks the "garden" of her virginity to her beloved (v.12).
The speakers are not specified, but they echo the language used by the shepherd in the previous two lines ("I have eaten...I have drunk"). Eating and drinking are often figurative for lovemaking. The girl dreams of the time when her relayionship with her beloved will not only be consummated, but have the approval of family and friends." Notes from The Geneva Bible.

I also have looked at this all interpreted as an allegory of Christ and the Church, and I don't find it difficult to see it both ways. the reason being is that this poetry is very, very difficult for us the readers.

I wouldn't want to make this truth of our Lord something that it is not. And we know this is a godly holy poem, so we can have that as our foundation.
If it's about a woman and a man loving one another desribing the intimacy of lovemaking, then every word is good and godly. If this Book is an allegory of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Bride, then every word is godly and good.

Here's an allegorical interpretation: "The beloved was there before she was aware. sister...spouse--as Adam's was created of his flesh, out of his opened side, there being none on earth on a level with him; so the bride, out of the pierced Savior (Eph. 5:30-32).

There's a lot of deep depth to this holy poem of truth. I suggest we all take the rest of our Christian walk with Christ on this earth to enjoy reading, studying, and meditating upon it. Seek out godly teachers, and pray that the Holy Spirit will give us wisdom and reveal what this glorious book has for us.

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89 Christopher Carney Sun, Apr 19, 2009 02:00.92 PM

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90 Christopher Carney Sun, Apr 19, 2009 02:28.18 PM

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91 Christopher Carney Sun, Apr 19, 2009 03:41.26 PM

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92 Christopher Carney Mon, Apr 20, 2009 07:25.37 AM

The bottom line is that when wise pastors are led by the Spirit of God to faithfully preach His Word by implication (as John MacArthur does), not detailed applcation of every human function imaginable in life, then all of life is ultimately addressed. God, through His Word in conjunction with the Holy Spirit of God and faithful pastors, speaks to his own on every matter of importance to Him. Long before MD, for centuries throughout the history of the church, men of God have taught SoS faithfully and clearly; the R-rated version is not necessary.

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93 James Williams Fri, May 1, 2009 12:42.68 PM

I am in the minority here. I didn't have a problem with Driscoll's comment when I first heard the downloaded sermon in my car during my commute. I got a lot out of the Peasant Princess sermon series and must say that it really made me direct my heart more toward serving my wife than ever before in my 14 years of marriage. And I'm fairly sure that was the intent of the series. At any rate, very few preachers are willing to mention, let alone preach, about certain portions of the word of God, and I find it refreshing when someone is brave enough to do so. If God thought it appropriate to place into Scripture, then we shouldn't be ashamed of it.

I do, however, take issue with this statement by Dr. MacArthur's in the post above:

"Driscoll blew off criticism about that kind of joking by claiming it's not blasphemy because it has nothing to do with the "real" Jesus. He says he is simply making fun of a false notion about Jesus."

When a pastor or teacher defends his statement, it is easy to minimize that defense by saying he "blew it off". If one were to rely only on Dr. MacArthur's description of Driscoll's defense, then he would have no way of knowing if Driscoll was actually flippant, or if he was genuinely concerned and sensitive to how that original statement was perceived. He may very well have been troubled, or wished he had used different words in the sermon. he clearly was expressing something I have heard discussed among Christian men for decades: that in one way, it is hard for a man to embrace the idea of being part of the "Bride". Mostly, we just make a quick joke about it, and that may very well be what MD did. But saying he "blew off" any concerns which were raised is not doing our brother in Christ any favors, and may very well be unfair to him. It sounds to this observer as if Dr. MacArthur wished to make the situation worse, and, perhaps subconsciously, distance himself from MD. And I find that more disturbing than anything that MD said.

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94 James Williams Fri, May 1, 2009 01:39.78 PM

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95 James Williams Fri, May 1, 2009 01:43.68 PM

To Dee M:

I just read your post and want to applaud you. Specifically, your post reminded me of the connection between those who would rather a preacher not teach frankly about what God speaks frankly about the SofS, and the Pharisees in Jesus' day. That's not a knock on the Pharisees. I honestly think they meant well. But they were stuck in their narrow idea of how things ought to be, and in certain areas (highlighted in conversations with Christ), their positions were more grounded in man's ideas than in Scripture. I see the same here. Modern American Christians, especially over the age of 40, were raised with the idea that sexuality is not to be discussed openly, but as with healing on the Sabbath, the Scripture never says that. Not once.

The hardest thing for a long-time Christian to do, hands-down, is separate long-held traditions from Scriptural truths. As a 44-year-old who has been a believe since age 10 and was raised in a conservative church, I know this one all too well. As I have grown closer to God, I have been made aware (by Him, not any man) that many ideas which I assumed were biblical are not present in Scripture at all. Some are strictly American, some are denominational, and some are from ideas that were preached to me early one, which made sense at the time, and which I never questioned. Now I know better.

By the way, if anyone has not listened the entire 12-week Peasant Princess series, you'll be pleased to know that Driscoll sticks to his guns about sex outside of marriage (including inappropriate touching), which sounds like a no-brainer to many of us, but which is news to the people of Seattle, a very socially liberal environment. He specifically blasted men who would lead their girlfriends astray, rightly calling them self-centered, and made it clear to the young ladies that any man who would use them in this way is not husband material.

As far as I could tell, MD stuck to what Scripture does say about sex, was clear when he was interpreting a disputable topic (such as what Dr. MacArthur mentions in the beginning of the piece above), and made it clear that certain traditional positions about this topic have no basis in Scripture. Even in a place like Seattle, Pharisees are lurking, waiting to pounce. Praise God for a teacher like Mark Driscoll!

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96 Christopher Carney Sat, May 2, 2009 09:59.73 AM

James:

So glad to hear you "know better" now (not). Sadly, you appear to think you "know better" than Dr. MacArthur, assuming and alluding to the notion that a man of such integrity, Biblical fidelity, and wisdom in years is merely being reactionary or blindly traditional for the sake of tradition alone. No, I'm afraid you and others in your camp fail to see how focused and rooted Dr. Macarthur's position is in Scripture--the depth of Scripture implied regarding holiness, conforming NOT to the world and it's ways, revering the purpose of the pulpit, seeing the sovereignty and vastness of God Biblically, being deeply concerned with how the watching world understands our God (which, btw, is not achieved through articles in their magazines that declare how shocked even they are at a pastor's approach of the subject of sex). Here's a novel thought: let the secular media write articles about how shocked they are at a pastor's unwavering commitment to Truth, declaring the Gospel, and NON-conformity with the world and it's ways. In all fairness, I certainly know Mr. Driscoll has so much of what it takes as a pastor to be written about for these good and noble things; indeed, he is gifted, and he has correct doctrine. This is why (I'm assuming) Dr. MacArthur and others find it so troubling that MD is gaining a reputation for these things that are non-essentials at best, and downright offenses to the integrity of Scripture at worst. Frankly, it is saddening to see this trend.

Again, as I've said before, good men of God have faithfully taught the Song of Solomon throughout the history of the church, long before the 20th or 21st centuries, as they have likewise given pastoral counsel regarding all matters of importance, including sex. Just because we live in a degraded society that parades everything once considered private and sacred out into the public square does not mean there ought to be a pastor trailing behind them, making sure he gets dibs on the "Christianized" corner of that filthy marketplace of postmodern ideas and culture. Wisdom declares that a pastor should refrain from the temptation to engage in such matters on their level, which only serves to validate their level. Then there is yet another category: those who profess to be Christians, yet who clearly indicate that they think and operate on the level just mentioned (e.g., carnality).

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97 James Williams Sun, May 3, 2009 09:34.06 PM

Mr Carney:
I didn't say I "know better" than Dr MacArthur. Read the context of my statement. I said I once thought one way, and now I know better. I was comparing what I know now to what I knew then. The rest of your post is so far off of what I said that it's not even worth commenting on. However, I will say that I get the impression from your post that one cannot come here and disagree with Dr MacArthur. If that's the rules, fine. I wish someone would have told me before I signed up.

Still, it seems odd. I have been listening to Dr MacArthur for decades, and he has never come across to me the type who would invite comments on a website and then imply that only those comments which agree with his positions are welcome. I suspect he isn't like that at ll. I posted a comment because I thought I was welcome to, and while you're free to post a comment on why you think I'm wrong, I cannot take you seriously if your main point is that Dr MAcArthur has been in the word for a long time. The fact is that I have been a student of Scripture for a long time, too (not as long as Dr MacArthur, but still), and so has Driscoll. It is possible for serious students of God's word to arrive at different positions. In this case, I believe Dr MacArthur is in error when he calls out Driscoll, because I don't think the specific items he denounces are actually prohibited by Scripture. In other words, I am saying that I disagree with Dr MacArthur on this point. Is that allowed?

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98 Christopher Carney Mon, May 4, 2009 03:01.04 PM

James:

I've just re-read your comments; I'm afraid they read the same now as they did when I read them the first time. Logically and rhetorically speaking, it is accurate to say that when a person disagrees with another about anything, he is, in effect, saying he "knows better" than the other person. If you disagree with Dr. MacArthur, as you've said you do, then you believe you "know better" than him; you are looking to the ethos of a man like Mr. Driscoll to support your views, and I understand that completely. For example, I disagree with Mr. Driscoll (and you) on this matter; hence, I firmly believe I "know better" than he does; I look to the ethos of a man like Dr. MacArthur (and other wise, Godly leaders) to confirm that which I am convicted. So, by all means, I say if you believe you know better, and you believe the Scriptures confirm your position, state it boldly.

Now, let me state clearly that I do not speak for Dr. MacArthur, as I am hardly worthy of such a calling. I'll leave that for the fine, highly qualified pastors with whom he ministers at GCC (and who moderate this site). Therefore, with all due respect, asking me if something is "allowed" in this forum is not a question for me to answer. As far as I'm concerned, disagreements seem perfectly fine in a comment thread; in fact, wouldn't you agree they are expected? However, you seem quite comfortable in your disagreement with the position of Dr. MacArthur and many others here on the subject at hand, yet you are very uncomfortable with anyone disagreeing with you and Mr. Driscoll. That seems "uncharitable" (to use postmodernist, emergent speak), as does the discounting of the rest of my last comments because you find them disagreeable with your sensibilities. I'm just curious, because you did not provide any rationale, what in the rest of my comments was "not even worth commenting on?" Why were the rest of my comments "not worth" discussing? They all relate directly to the topic under discussion, so I'm perplexed as to why you would make such a sweeping remark. Now, if it is because you disagree entirely with all I said after the "knowing better" comment, that's fine; I just wish you clarified your reasoning.

We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree, I'm afraid.

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99 James Williams Mon, May 4, 2009 08:34.22 PM

Wow. The difference in tone between your two posts is amazing, Chris.
I'm not one to drag things out, but since you asked...
I said that I wasn't able to take the bulk of your post seriously because of things like this:

"So glad to hear you "know better" now (not). Sadly, you appear to think you "know better" than Dr. MacArthur,"

That tone is very different from the one you adopted in the later post, where you explained that there is nothing inherently wrong with thinking we know better than someone. As far as that statement goes, I agree with your logic. Still, the tone in the quote above was uncalled for.

Then, there's this:
"assuming and alluding to the notion that a man of such integrity, Biblical fidelity, and wisdom in years is merely being reactionary or blindly traditional for the sake of tradition alone. No, I'm afraid you and others in your camp fail to see how focused and rooted Dr. Macarthur's position is in Scripture"

The reason I thought this was out of line was simply because the implication was that one side of the dispute is Scripture, based while the other is based on assumptions, or who knows what else. As I explained earlier, Dr MacArthur is very knowledgeable when it comes to Scripture. I'll be the first to admit that. But that admission does not mean (a) that others who disagree with him are not also basing their ideas on Scripture; or (b) that Dr MacArthur cannot be wrong. The way I read your post, you seemed to mean that both (a) and (b) are true.

Finally, there's this, from your recent post:
" yet you are very uncomfortable with anyone disagreeing with you and Mr. Driscoll. "

That's not true at all. I have a handful of ministers that I listen to regularly, including Dr MacArthur and Driscoll. And overall, I am blessed by them (which is why I keep listening to them). But I find myself disagreeing with all of them from times to time. In this case, I disagree with the position taken by Dr MacArthur, and I posted a comment to express that. Nothing uncomfortable about that.

Funny that you mentioned the emergent church. I recently listened to Driscoll speaking to a group of seminary students about that very topic. As you may know, he was once part of the movement when he first started, and then has distanced himself from those EC teachers who are teaching heresy. He went point by point in discussing each of them, and graciously called a few of them heretics, while saying others were not heretics, but he doesn't agree with them on some items. In all cases, he offers specifics about why he says what he says. He ended the talk by urging the seminarians to take the good part of the EC (being open to new ways to share the undiluted Gospel to the lost) while being careful not to fall into all that makes the EC so wrong (changing the message of the Gospel to make it more seeker-friendly). It's an inspiring talk, available on the Internet somewhere. About an hour and a half long. If you get a chance, I urge you to give it a listen.

I bring this up because I wish Dr MacArthur would save his criticisms of popular preachers for those who are leading people astray with a false gospel.

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100 Christopher Carney Tue, May 5, 2009 11:07.22 PM

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101 Freida Richter Wed, Feb 24, 2010 09:33.79 PM

I am so thankful to God that there are pastors who aren't afraid to address important issues like these. To call out unfit pastors. To do what no one seems willing to do.

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